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Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

smh.com.au

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Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#81
I wonder what obligations the Swiss lords have been neglecting. Perhaps the townsfolk could bill for absent services?

They are not peasants, as such things likely don't exist in modern Italy. So how can they owe anything?

The Swiss baron's descendants - are they still barons? Can they still hold a fief?

Perhaps the Swiss baron's lord can be convinced to levy a similar tax on them, and return the money to the town.

It's very interesting.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#82
post #2

Maybe they should apply to the king of Italy for relief, since it is from his divine right to all the land that the fief is granted to his vassals.

there's no such thing as king of italy.

and since the thing came up: there is no such thing as prince of italy either, nor princess or queen.

and by the way, the savoia line of blood isn't even legitimate as heir to the now-nonexistant throne.

the legitimate heirs would be the descendant of Aimone duke of Aosta, which nowadays have better things to do.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#83
post #7

Now wondering which European countries still have intact feudal law. Scotland abolished feudal tenure in 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_Feudal_Tenure_etc... ; most of the feu burdens were abolished or explicitly ported across. England&Wales still retains the feudal system in places and occasionally people are hit by "chancel repair liability" or somesuch. The chivalric court still exists: https://en…

I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general. That, I guess, is one of the few potential upsides of any revolution: an opportunity arises to just throw away a lot of pre-existing arrangements and re-draw them anew in (hopefully) more sensible way. Of course, the quality of the new design and/or its implementation is n…

> I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general.

Rather make that "no country other than the US and UK+Commonwealth countries". These two countries are probably the only ones in the world that haven't suffered any kind of comprehensive revolution in the last 100 years, and it shows.

Not just in the absurd amount of precedence cases or the existence of "case law" in general, but also in issues that directly impact the functioning of democracy (i.e. US voting being on Tuesdays because back 200 years ago Sunday was for church visits, Monday for traveling on horseback to the voting booth and Wednesday back home - made sense back then, nowadays it serves as a very effective tool to disenfranchise poor people from voting) or threaten the foundations of the existence of life (hundreds years old water claims that nowhere near closely reflect the actual cost of the water, leading to farmers and Nestle running unsustainable operations just "because they're allowed" without thinking if what they're doing can permanently destroy aquifers).

Every other country has had all that historical baggage unceremoniously dropped.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#84

Italian sources[1] say that the right of the Auguet Barons is 30% of the sale price of a house in the oldest part of the village. This is very different from what the SMH article says. [1] https://www.iltempo.it/attualita/2021/03/12/news/nicola-zing...

It also looks like a flaking attempt at a political party...

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#86

I wonder what obligations the Swiss lords have been neglecting. Perhaps the townsfolk could bill for absent services? They are not peasants, as such things likely don't exist in modern Italy. So how can they owe anything? The Swiss baron's descendants - are they still barons? Can they still hold a fief? Perhaps the Swiss baron's lord can be convinced to levy a similar tax on them, and return the money to the town. It…

Why do you assume taxes are a payment for services? In most cases there is no written contract with rights and obligations of each party and there is no implied right or obligation of any sort.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#87

I wonder what obligations the Swiss lords have been neglecting. Perhaps the townsfolk could bill for absent services? They are not peasants, as such things likely don't exist in modern Italy. So how can they owe anything? The Swiss baron's descendants - are they still barons? Can they still hold a fief? Perhaps the Swiss baron's lord can be convinced to levy a similar tax on them, and return the money to the town. It…

Why do you assume taxes are a payment for services? In most cases there is no written contract with rights and obligations of each party and there is no implied right or obligation of any sort.

No, not at all. But being a Baron over somebody may have obligations? If they were not rendered (it was all neglected for 60 years) perhaps something could be negotiated based on that. E.g. the baron provides protection - that certainly wasn't happening.

And I do note that there's obligation to the Baron's lord. Doing an appeal there is another route.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#88
Mexican Ranchos are still recognized in California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California

There was a process for them to be “registered” after the US took over. And many were split up as the owners had little cash to pay for upkeep.

But there are properties that derive from ranchos that carry on the rights. I recall on oceanside plot where beach access was not open to the public (contravening CA law) as it wasn’t a requirement in Mexican law.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#89
post #64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> elected officials have an extremely strong bias to adding/amending versus repealing/scaling back I find this to be a crippling problem of how politics works in modern democracies. Taxes are a great example, because almost every country will increase it, but never decrease it. They’ll think of a 100 new ways to extract taxes, but never remove outdated ones.

Not necessarily. 50s / 60s US income tax is much, much higher than current rate. I just think the cycle of going up and down is extremely long. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Margina...

This is where supportability comes into play: a short time after the was people understood the need for such measure, today you would have a revolution for such a tax level. In 20 years it will come back, no worries, people will love it.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general. That, I guess, is one of the few potential upsides of any revolution: an opportunity arises to just throw away a lot of pre-existing arrangements and re-draw them anew in (hopefully) more sensible way. Of course, the quality of the new design and/or its implementation is n…

> I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general. Rather make that "no country other than the US and UK+Commonwealth countries". These two countries are probably the only ones in the world that haven't suffered any kind of comprehensive revolution in the last 100 years, and it shows. Not just in the absurd amount of pre…

You do realize revolutions usually involve killing people and all kinds of other violence? The price for “unceremoniously dropping” what you consider historical baggage are real lives and livelihoods of not just those you deem undesirable or unfair, but more often than not regular folks caught in the middle.

If you want these laws changed then vote, run for office, work on a movement. Channel that energy productively instead of destructively.

Change is possible peacefully, but of course a “revolution” sounds way cooler.

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