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Laws of Fun (2009)

lesswrong.com

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Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#11
post #10

As a Christian, it would be very sad/disheartening if this author's description of "Christian Heaven" were actually supported by scripture. Aside from that, many of these ideas assume people to be completely self-centered and un-altruistic, which is often true, but I'd expect the ultimate fun to be more about shaking those bonds than attempting to accommodate them. From my view that requires changes both in the envir…

The article those draw from is a bit more charitable, though not much more so: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/pK4HTxuv6mftHXWC3/prolegomen...

As a side note, you can support just about anything you want with scripture, so it's not a great basis for an argument.

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#12
I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrific in a way — how could you possibly not go crazy after living trillions of years and thinking about the next trillion? The only real solution is to alter the human brain to no longer fear death or eternal existence.

The point about the pleasure/pain imbalance is interesting. Think about how people slowly develop tolerance to drugs/medications that make you feel better and require more of it to get the same effect, but with pain we have the opposite situation, where constant suffering leads to experiencing even more suffering in the future through the process of sensitization (there are some theories that a lot of chronic pain is due to this rather than the original injury). It really doesn’t seem fair how massive this imbalance is.

I’ve slowly realized that I probably won’t ever figure out exactly what will make me happy, but I definitely know what makes me unhappy, and it’s much easier to develop a life plan based on avoiding negative things than pursuing positive things.

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#13
These discussions are useful in a concrete way because it helps us to identify and prioritize our values with our imagination! Lesswrong is, in this case, cataloging my teenage thoughts on the matter, which is very cool.

Buddhist cosmology has an interesting take on heaven. They believe only humans can become enlightened and achieve nirvana. Angels, demons and animals can't do it. Even heaven ends, in that system, and angels, although exceedingly powerful, happy, and long-lived, still experiences the suffering of attachment. Meanwhile, nirvana is explicitly defined as ultimately blissful, but not life, not death, not both, not neither - and a state the enlightened can enter into at will. (The major steps on the path are defined by touching nirvana N times, each time burns out some deep seated big category of reaction, like fear, where by the 4th time you conquer lust and anger, and boom, you're an arahant.)

I like this. It tacitly accepts the difficulty of heaven as a self-consistent concept, which in turn challenges the assumption that there exists some combination of external circumstance which is perfect, forever, for anyone, and places the responsibility of ultimate bliss squarely on your shoulders. The implications seem bloodless and strange, unless you accept the fact that, as you become more enlightened, the more powerful your ability to love and act on that love becomes.

BTW my favorite conventional utopia is the Culture from Ian M. Banks. It's fantasy couched in scifi rhetoric, but I think Banks does a great job looking at the implications of getting every material thing you ever wanted, every freedom, almost every power, the problems and drama that even a galaxy spanning, unimaginably powerful and benevolent society can run into.

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#14
post #11
post #10

As a Christian, it would be very sad/disheartening if this author's description of "Christian Heaven" were actually supported by scripture. Aside from that, many of these ideas assume people to be completely self-centered and un-altruistic, which is often true, but I'd expect the ultimate fun to be more about shaking those bonds than attempting to accommodate them. From my view that requires changes both in the envir…

The article those draw from is a bit more charitable, though not much more so: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/pK4HTxuv6mftHXWC3/prolegomen... As a side note, you can support just about anything you want with scripture, so it's not a great basis for an argument.

Certainly, though I personally draw a pretty large difference between "supported by scripture" and either "I can find a verse that helps me justify my opinion" or "I can find some famous idiot in the Bible who made the same mistake, therefore it's okay".

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#15

> 15. Trying to compete on a single flat playing field with six billion other humans also creates problems. Our ancestors lived in bands of around 50 people. Today the media is constantly bombarding us with news of exceptionally rich and pretty people as if they lived next door to us; and very few people get a chance to be the best at any specialty. This is why I say social media isn't fun, and it has always been a c…

Well, social media may be fun for those who are the worlds most beautiful and rich

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#16

I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrific in a way — how could you possibly not go crazy after living trillions of years and thinking about the next trillion? The only real solution is to alter the human brai…

You could go for what Iain M Banks did in The Culture: although death is theoretically optional, most people only live for a few hundred years because by that point they’re basically done with everything they care about doing.

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#17
This article is reminding me so much of "The Good Place", which explores how the ideal conception of heaven of many people could perceivably be construed as a hell; and vice versa. I recommend it heartily - both for the laughs, and the thinking.

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#18

I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrific in a way — how could you possibly not go crazy after living trillions of years and thinking about the next trillion? The only real solution is to alter the human brai…

> either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrible in a way

We know death causes suffering, but we don't know if immortality causes suffering. Don't knock it till you've tried it. #FableOfTheDragonTyrant

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#19

I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrific in a way — how could you possibly not go crazy after living trillions of years and thinking about the next trillion? The only real solution is to alter the human brai…

The Good Place (the show) took a try at this! It’s an exceptional show in many ways, and the final season spends a lot of time trying to solve this exact problem and grappling with its consequences.

(I won’t spoil it for you, but Wikipedia has a summary if you don’t want to watch.)

Re: Laws of Fun (2009)

#20

> 15. Trying to compete on a single flat playing field with six billion other humans also creates problems. Our ancestors lived in bands of around 50 people. Today the media is constantly bombarding us with news of exceptionally rich and pretty people as if they lived next door to us; and very few people get a chance to be the best at any specialty. This is why I say social media isn't fun, and it has always been a c…

>a cruel spectacle of what happens when you throw average people into the ring of elite competiton [sic]

Good comment. I'm curious what your take on the use of social media as a means to share outrageous lies and engage in trolling behavior. Is this also an expression of a kind of status? Genuinely asking. I never thought of it that way.

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