Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 422 posts

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#281

Post by atemerev »

pessimizer wrote: post #209
atemerev wrote: post #189

So, now every Belarusian who didn't agree with the regime and wanted to leave the country will be stuck there.

The purpose of sanctions is to torture the civilian population until they are willing to tacitly support the revolution you're trying to foment.

There were peaceful mass protests every day since August, with millions of participants in some days. It didn’t help. Local police and state security tracks, jails and tortures the protest leaders and journalists. Or do you want a violent revolution instead?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#282

Post by Dah00n »

dannyw wrote: post #206
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit. The system for permits is quite arbitrary, with some reporting approvals in minutes, and others reporting rejections without reason. It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders as we have been relatively unscathed from COVID.

Does no-one complain that it breaks The UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#284

Post by teachingassist »

sbarre wrote: post #226
dannyw wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit. The system for permits is quite arbitrary, with some reporting approvals in minutes, and others reporting rejections without reason. It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders as we have been relatively unscathed from COVID.

> It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders Of course they do, but as with most other human rights declarations, these rules are there to protect the minority, not the majority.

>these rules are there to protect the minority, not the majority.

That's not clear.

Democracy protects the majority (but not always the minority); in an absence of democracy, the majority are also vulnerable to breaches of human rights.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#286

Post by londons_explore »

EliRivers wrote: post #260
londons_explore wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a few countries who will pretty much let anybody in. Migrants often bring with them skills that the locals don't have, and in any mass migration, those who migrate (vs stay where they are) tend to be the fitter, smarter, richer people. The main reason not to take migrants is you might see substantial economic losses as migrants send income back home to support family. You might alienate your existing popula…

you might see substantial economic losses as migrants send income back home to support family. Is that a real problem? Assume they get paid in local currency (e.g. US dollars). Option one; they buy a foreign currency with those US dollars, and send that foreign currency overseas. The dollars stay in the US and get spent. Option two, they send those US dollars overseas; those US dollars ultimately either come back to…

> If they do, it's just like a non-migrant worker.

It isn't quite. Imagine dollars leave the US, get sent to Nigeria, and eventually return to the US to buy some music.

Compare that to the case where the dollars do not get sent to Nigeria, but remain in the US.

In the latter case, the Nigerian person wanting their music needs to find another source for the dollars to buy their music. That in turn makes the dollar more valuable, and reduces Nigerias buying power for US products and services.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#287

Post by radiator »

axiosgunnar wrote: post #204
refactor_master wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

Why does Germamy willingly accept so many then? Genuinely curious

Germany or the government of Germany?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#288

Post by rklaehn »

simonh wrote: post #270
rklaehn wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries. E.g. the head of the German constitutional court has been a recent member of parliament for 12 years. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_Harbarth How is that not a political appointment? And I have not yet seen any state TV which is not sympathetic to the government bureaucracy. If you are being paid by the state, you are not going to be too critical of…

>I fail to see how this is different than other EU countries. That's a pretty colossal scale of failure, IMHO. Inability to conform to platonic ideals of democracy and transparency != blatant autocracy.

So you think the head of the constitutional court being an active politician with 12 years in parliament is a minor deviation from a platonic ideal? That is exactly the same as what the OP mentioned.

The German constitutional court is stacked with political appointees.

Sure, the situation in Hungary might be even worse. But western countries in the last decade have completely lost the moral high ground.

You can not imprison journalists like Julian Assange in solitary confinement in conditions that amount to torture, and then complain about lack of press freedom in other countries.

You can not pick your party colleague to lead the constitutional court and then complain about political court appointees in other countries.

This kind of selective outrage is just ridiculous.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#289

Post by ceilingcorner »

inglor_cz wrote: post #80
ceilingcorner wrote: post #73

Unfortunately, the real losers of this situation will be the Belarusian people, many of whom have immigrated to nearby countries like Poland or Germany. They will now (probably) be unable to visit family members easily, as flights will have to reroute through Istanbul or Russia. Pretty much the same situation with Iran. Actions intended to punish an unjust government mostly just hurt their citizens.

Poland isn't that far from Belarus (they are direct neighbours). People travel overland between those two, it is also quite a bit cheaper. Even Czech Belarussians tend to take the bus back home. It is going to be worse for expats in France or Britain, though.

I doubt that the land borders will remain open and easy to traverse. It’s likely that this is the beginning of an escalation on both sides.

Beyond that, Poland may be bordering Belarus, but Poland is a huge country. Berlin to Minsk is 1,100 km, a 12-13 hour bus ride at minimum. Add a 2-3 hour wait at the border to be realistic. This all adds up to a much longer trip than a 1-2 hour flight. Especially for immigrants that are probably visiting home for a weekend trip and can’t afford to waste 3 days just on traveling.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#290

Post by sampo »

sbarre wrote: post #226
dannyw wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, it's currently a crime for citizens to leave without a permit. The system for permits is quite arbitrary, with some reporting approvals in minutes, and others reporting rejections without reason. It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders as we have been relatively unscathed from COVID.

> It is worth noting that a recent survey showed a vast majority of Australians preferring closed borders Of course they do, but as with most other human rights declarations, these rules are there to protect the minority, not the majority.

Covid restrictions are also there to protect a minority, not the majority.
Post reply on HN