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EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

bbc.com

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Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#271

Post by bmmayer1 »

Ichthypresbyter wrote: post #218
londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

>I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. It's in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 13 Section 2: >Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. Of course, it's not clear how much legal force the UDHR has.

> Of course, it's not clear how much legal force the UDHR has.

I think we all know the answer to this question :)

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#273

Post by Gravityloss »

Y_Y wrote: post #210
halfdan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is interesting. There's no way for a plane to get to it without crossing EU airspace.. I wonder how that plays out.

In the interests of pedantry, there are several ways. The simplest might by to bring the plane over land. There's also the option of going above the vertical limit of the controlled airspace, which seems to be debated, although it must be at least 30km, and less than the boundary with "space" which must be near the Kármán line at around 100km. A tunnel would be possible also, but prohibitively expensive. It would pro…

Barge up the Rhine

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#274

Post by alkonaut »

tchalla wrote: post #257
alkonaut wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Belarus also claims that the plane was landed due to a bomb threat. Yes. But the pilot doesn't.

I am sorry but this is a slightly frustrating conversation because we are losing the forests for the trees. In both cases, an aircraft was grounded based on a suspicion. In one case, the official reason was "technical reasons", in another it was due to "bomb threat". In both cases, the official reasons given were a ruse. That is the key focus here in both cases. The question of forcefully grounding an airplane for ul…

Yes. These were both dick moves, but I think they are very different. In one it was a democratically elected government closing the airspace through diplomatic pressure, indirectly resulting in the pilot having land the plane. The plane in question was a private jet not in commercial traffic, so it wasn't full of people.

In this case a dictatorship forced a commercial plane traveling between two EU/nato countries, full of people, to land in a country without a transparent or independent justice system. The grounding was made with a false bomb threat from the plane and actions by Belo(?)rusian agents on the plane intervening. There was no ruse in the Austria situation - the technical reasons were reported by the pilot. The US pressure was to close the french/spanish airspace.

Again, both dick moves, but to me completely different things.

If the US realized Snowden was crossing US airspace and diverted a plane full of people flying between (say) Brazil and Canada to land in the US by using US agents to cause trouble on board or make false bomb threats to force the plane down, I'd be almost as upset (Almost, because I give democratic governments more of a pass, and because the US justice system is at least slightly more transparent and independent, although a Snowden process certainly would show its terrible side)

> In both cases, a country used their muscle to land a flight.

Absolutely. But in one it was diplomatic muscle or "soft power" from a democratic country. In the other it wasn't.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#275

Post by mjburgess »

simonh wrote: post #237
refactor_master wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.

Does the not-free market have a better track record?

The phrase here is "The State" and no.

c. 30 states are "free", c. 130 are dictatorships now.

Those numbers get worse as you wind back the clock.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#276

Post by supportlocal4h »

unixhero wrote: post #251
proxysna wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.

As opposed to, say, travelling to Minsk?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#277

Post by atemerev »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #236
atemerev wrote: post #189

So, now every Belarusian who didn't agree with the regime and wanted to leave the country will be stuck there.

Wouldn't they be able to cross the boarder into Lithuania by land?

Nope. There are border controls.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#278

Post by proxysna »

jaynetics wrote: post #258
proxysna wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

just out of curiosity, are you worried that posts such as this one could land you in trouble at some point? or are you taking steps like using a VPN for this?

I am living outside of Belarus right now in a country with decent government, so i don't really worry about this. But ofc i use my own wireguard vpn and mtproto proxy for telegram when i am traveling to Belarus. I am not going to censor myself, but it pays to be cautious.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#279

Post by autosharp »

unixhero wrote: post #251
proxysna wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.

Is it? Who is at risk in Moscow but not in Minsk?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#280

Post by proxysna »

unixhero wrote: post #251
proxysna wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.

Yeah, but it is one of the last options that does not involve using buses\trains to get to minsk rn.
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