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Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

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Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#321

Post by SergeAx »

aphextron wrote: post #282
motives wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that the EU has banned entire nations (such as Kazakhstan and others) from flying in EU airspace before for not meeting safety expectations. It is absolutely within possibility to ban Belarus for an overt Chicago convention violation.

>It is absolutely within possibility to ban Belarus for an overt Chicago convention violation. EU did the same thing in 2013 by forcing the Bolivian president's plane to land in an effort to catch Snowden. They have no moral or legal standing here whatsoever. https://euobserver.com/justice/120734

No, it was not the same thing. That plane had all means to travel in another direction, including return to departure point (it had more than enough fuel for it). Also, whataboutism.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#322

Post by trunc8 »

toyg wrote: post #133
input_sh wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you talking like there's no middle between not doing anything and a full on invasion? From the top of my head: - Divert EU planes to avoid Belarus. - Prevent Belarus' aeroplanes from flying over the EU. - Increase sanctions towards Belarus officials. etc etc

Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there…

Well that's a most uncharitable characterisation of Ryanair. They are indeed profit-driven but they are unashamedly upfront and, frankly, honest about this. Their ruthless efficiency enables cheap flights across Europe, which was largely out of reach to previous generations. I'm not sure how they really differ from other successful profit-driven businesses, other than perhaps their marketing approach. You can choose not to fly with them of course, but many do, and wouldn't consider themselves immoral for doing so.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#323

Post by dang »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #57
golergka wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European diplomats being "strongly concerned" have long become a running joke here in Russia: https://twitter.com/ISEUConcerned I sincerely hope that this statement finally gets backed up by some decisive action that can put real pressure on these dictators, but I don't get my hopes up.

What is the probability of this account being owned by Russian government? I would say 99% and you’re just perpetuating the same propaganda.

You can't attack another user like that, and we ban accounts that do. Please read the site guidelines and stick to the rules from now on. Note this one:

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I've posted endlessly for many years about how the overwhelming majority of such accusations are based on nothing but fantasy—poisonous fantasy, which it is not ok to pollute the threads with, no matter how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. No more of this please, regardless of political orientation or ideology or nation.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#324

Post by jesterson »

maratc wrote: post #8

This will likely have no consequences to the regime in Belarus, while increasing costs to these Baltic airlines. A policy that might achieve something would be if the Baltic states, together with Poland and Ukraine, would close their airspace to Belavia planes, until the detained passenger is delivered to his destination in Vilnius. This will increase costs to Belarusian airlines, which would be a problem to the regi…

> This will increase costs to Belarusian airlines, which would be a problem to the regime.

First of all it'd be a problem to the people of Poland and Ukraine, but I guess virtue signalling matters more than real problems.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#325

Post by oe »

bobthepanda wrote: post #245
bellyfullofbac wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clarification: not just these 2 countries. I wonder if all countries do it.

Most of them do, but most will also waive it for flights originating or departing from said country. Some countries go above and beyond; Russia typically grants overflight access to one airline per country, so SAS has the ability to fly over Russia while Norwegian Air never has.

Probably correct but not sure Russia’s rule applies here? SAS is Swedish/Danish and Norwegian is, well, Norwegian.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#326

Post by kofejnik »

nzmsv wrote: post #299
kofejnik wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you're still in Russia, try posting some photos of 1939 Brest-Litovsk parade on your VK page, we'll watch from afar how it goes for you

Like this? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Парад_вермахта_перед_частями_Р...

no, like post it to your VK and write "USSR cooperated with Nazis to divide and occupy Poland"

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#327

Post by toyg »

trunc8 wrote: post #322
toyg wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and all of them take time to be put into motion. A lot of different parties will have to agree, including immoral profit-driven scum like Ryanair. That's what democracy looks like in practice; it ain't as pretty and orderly as a tyrannical dictatorship, where one guy says something and everyone complies right away. All of that means it's early to complain about any lack of European reaction. In some areas there…

Well that's a most uncharitable characterisation of Ryanair. They are indeed profit-driven but they are unashamedly upfront and, frankly, honest about this. Their ruthless efficiency enables cheap flights across Europe, which was largely out of reach to previous generations. I'm not sure how they really differ from other successful profit-driven businesses, other than perhaps their marketing approach. You can choose…

After this very incident, they continued flying over Belarus like nothing had happened. They couldn't sacrifice even a penny of profit, after one of their very own passengers had been kidnapped, to guarantee the safety of their customers. That was scummy, but absolutely in character for a business that doesn't even pretend to care about anything but their money. It took European law to make them provide the bare minimum of human comfort to their passengers.

I often have little alternative but to fly with Ryanair, as the airport in my hometown has been effectively taken over by them during a downturn. I honestly don't even experience much of the "cheapness" - for one reason or another, flying with my kids always ends up costing as much as on a regular airline. They currently owe me 600 quid for a flight I had booked pre-pandemic which obviously got cancelled - and they'd rather sit on a "voucher" for a decade rather than refund me, of course. I'm happy they changed the market a bit, but that was 30 years ago, now they're just a garden variety sociopathic business.

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#329

Post by bellyfullofbac »

oe wrote: post #325
bobthepanda wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of them do, but most will also waive it for flights originating or departing from said country. Some countries go above and beyond; Russia typically grants overflight access to one airline per country, so SAS has the ability to fly over Russia while Norwegian Air never has.

Probably correct but not sure Russia’s rule applies here? SAS is Swedish/Danish and Norwegian is, well, Norwegian.

Wikipedia[1] says: Scandinavian Airlines, usually known as SAS, is the flag carrier of Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

In any case grandparent poster is probably just repeating info out of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdNDYBt9e_U&t=382s

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines

Re: Baltic airlines reroute flights to avoid Belarus airspace

#330

Post by w0de0 »

nyolfen wrote: post #298
def_true_false wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had a bunch of plain clothes operatives follow a guy onto a public flight, fake a bomb threat and scramble jets to get the plane to land? All this whataboutism isn't really bringing much to the discussion here... What next, the West can't complain about human rights violations in HK or Mongolia just because US police shot some dude (again)?

“whataboutism” is a thought-terminating cliche — it’s a directly analogous situation that shows that there are no principles or rule-based order, only power. you have the power to get away with doing this, or you don’t; lofty rhetoric is a propaganda measure

“Whataboutism” gets my goat because:

* It generally has no context. Yes, the West did something similar. It does not follow that the West will engage in the same type of systemic evil, that argument must be made on its own.

* Whataboutism often implies that naughty behavior is ok; that the hypocrisy of the West is justification for some further evil. One is at best making the argument that everyone is evil so just do it

* It consistently assumes the ignorance of particularly Americans - that if you just tell the dumb American that his government did something bad too, the scales will fall from their eyes, they will accept everything is evil and meaningless, and they will stop criticizing you

* the West is just plain better, on the historical record, at admitting and correcting hypocrisy. It’s a kind of meta-hypocrisy for these countries that never actually implement a liberal system to do such a great job of helping us improve ours, by pointing out flaws we’re secure enough to fix and they’re not.

Moreover, whataboutism does not prove that only power exists. Much the opposite: it proves that, at least in the West, moral norms can have force. Else why would Easterners bother with it?

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