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Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

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Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#31
I also did a deep dive on Urbit a few months back (shameless plug: https://blog.janissary.xyz/posts/urbit), and I really agree with the author for the most part.

Definitely the most concerning part of Urbit, for me at least, is the obscurantism of Hoon. Much like the author says, it's totally incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read through every bit of the (lacking imo) documentation. Even a domain-specific language with a familiar syntax would be better, since at least a first-timer could grok basic logic/structure at first glance. This only compounds the security concerns, since reviewing any Hoon code requires being a domain expert - I doubt any security/crypto researchers will want to take a few weeks to learn Hoon just to audit something as obscure as Urbit. Hoon even has a kind of Lisp-y feel to it and Lisp lends itself well to the purely functional goals of Hoon/Nock, so I don't see why they couldn't have just made Hoon a Lisp.

On the whole however, I'm hesitantly optimistic about the project. Most other works aiming to address Internet centralization just seem like band-aids (federated social networks still have problems with moderation/deplatforming, self-hosting just means running it in someone else's data center, etc.), and Urbit seems to be one of the few things willing to deal with the fundamental problems from the ground up.

Also, I'm kind of glad the author didn't mention Urbit's original author despite most other posts on the topic feeling the need to mention it. He's long since left the project but it seems as though it'll never be rid of his influence. At this point I just feel bad for the maintainers/users that will constantly be associated with the guy from now on.

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#33
post #29
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I think the author spent a lot of effort to understand the underlying tech stack - honestly I can't understand why, but maybe they were exceptionally bored? This is the first time I learned that the underlying VM is single-threaded, for example.

Why would you think he spent a lot of effort? The second sentence literally says that he did not.

True. Just a couple of hours.

On the other hand... is walltime the only criterion worth considering?

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#34
post #25
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could buy a domain.

I'm sure someone will talk about your registrar potentially banning you but since your identity is tied to your public IP address that could already happen.

Indeed the direct link to an IP address is currently a weak point in terms of privacy, but it could potentially link to an onion address instead to solve that issue. The point is that your identity is on a globally available and immutable blockchain instead of someone's db you must trust

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#35
post #31

I also did a deep dive on Urbit a few months back (shameless plug: https://blog.janissary.xyz/posts/urbit ), and I really agree with the author for the most part. Definitely the most concerning part of Urbit, for me at least, is the obscurantism of Hoon. Much like the author says, it's totally incomprehensible to anyone who hasn't read through every bit of the (lacking imo) documentation. Even a domain-specific langu…

> He's long since left the project but it seems as though it'll never be rid of his influence.

The major design concersns raised by the above comment and the OP are inseparable from the original author, because he chose an extremely idiosyncratic language and system design that eschews all known standards and practices.

If people want to make the idea work, they should port it to a reputable language.

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#36
If you're interested in an articulation of what's exciting about Urbit from one of the core devs, this recent launch event hosted a great conversation: https://youtu.be/_aRnfacZPto?t=3224 (run-time 1hr and a good deal of it is about Urbit+Bitcoin specifically).

One thing I've enjoyed and learned a lot from while participating in blockchain and Urbit communities is the sheer difference in valance of conversations, from "this is entirely useless to the point of being a joke or fraud" to "the rest of the world is insane and finally something makes sense." There is irrational exuberance on both sides, but also deep, grounded takes diametrically opposed in their conclusions.

To be human!

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#37
post #22

While the Urbit tech stack is clearly insane (some say it’s on purpose), The urbit identity layer is interesting and useful. You basically buy your username as a NFT, and that username is bound to signing keys, ip address and ethereum wallet. This makes it quite practical as an identity for chat / social network. This identity is on the eth blockchain and thus nobody can steal it / ban you, which is a unique value pr…

Have you never lost a private key? I definitely lost the private key to my original PGP key. And I wouldn't say "nobody can ban you" - quite the opposite, in fact: with Urbit every major network node gets to make its own choice about banning, and the system encourages that. And the obvious end state is for a setup like Mastodon (or, frankly, Twitter blocks) where nodes collaborate on identifying spammers, griefers, a…

> And I wouldn't say "nobody can ban you" [...] And the obvious end state is for a setup like Mastodon

It is indeed quite similar to mastodon in the sense that other instances can ban you. The difference is that in mastodon your identity is usually located on an instance, and if that instance bans you, you lose your identity. In Urbit every identity has its own instance so your personal contact list will still be able to reach you.

Of course requiring everybody to run its own instance adds quite some friction for user onboarding, but that is an issue with the urbit network, not with the identity layer. You could imagine having your identity and linking it to a hosted instance, and later switch instance if the needs arise.

This is what I like about the idea of having your identity as a NFT, but clearly the way urbit currently uses it does not exploit the full potential of the idea.

As for losing your keys, if such a system would become widespread, most people would chose to have their keys hosted on a third party service, and only people who really care about maintaining full ownership would keep the keys to themselves.

Re: Urbit: The good, the bad, and the insane

#40
I find the incredulousness around urbit's differences and ambition very tiresome. I have an urbit ship, I bought the identity when it was not so expensive. I've hardly used it; I'm not a pioneer sort of person and I've not found the time to get into Hoon. I'm not at all a true believer (to extend the cult comparison, which strikes me as unfair too); I think there are a few concerns you could raise (I agree on OTA updates and address space, and would add governance and power relations). But I for one welcome an ambitious re-thinking of (a subset of) computing and I wish them the best. I mean, run it in a VM or something and probably don't use it for anything sensitive right now. I want to live in a world where people have a go at unconventional things.
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