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Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#131

Post by boomboomsubban »

wfleming wrote: post #55
pc86 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the legal doctrine piece, but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence. Every person has the right to speak their mind, to defend themselves, to not incriminate themselves, etc. etc. with all the caveats and potential nullifications that accompan…

> but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence As an American I find this a very surprising interpretation, and I doubt anybody in my close social circle would agree with it either.

This is the reason that the Bill of Rights say "Congress shall make no law infringing on..." The creators of the Constitution were very clear that rights were not granted by the state, they were inherent to all people.

There's still room for the Bill of Rights to only apply to Americans though, it is not clear whether they may make no law infringing on the rights of citizens or people.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#132

Post by nojokes »

bobthepanda wrote: post #108
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been various rather nasty trials in which vital defense info was ruled both secret and inadmissible; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity covers the most famous examples, particularly Matrix-Churchill which I'm just about old enough to remember. I believe ECHR 1998 has improved the situation a bit, although the existence of a court outwith the UK to which people can appeal their human rig…

Railing against the ECHR is arguably one of the things that sparked Brexit.

Can you elaborate this a little?

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#133

Post by boomboomsubban »

michaelt wrote: post #93
pc86 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not meaning to imply that the USC applies to anyone other than US citizens from a legal standpoint. Not only am I not a lawyer, but I'm meaning to draw a distinction between legal rights and human rights in this context. I'm saying that the rights codified in the USC are inalienable rights. The US government isn't granting the freedom of speech, and it can't take it away. The right exists because you're a human b…

I think a lot of people in the US would say that rights like freedom of speech ought to be available to everyone, everywhere in the world. But if you ask them whether 4th-8th amendment rights should extend to detainees at Guantanamo Bay; or whether separation of church and state should be demanded of our Israeli friends; or whether the Queen should be deposed as a tyrant; you would find a lot less support.

These two points of view aren't contradictory, the Constitution is very clear that it does not grant anybody rights but it is less clear about whose rights they can infringe on.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#134

Post by bdowling »

StavrosK wrote: post #119
weego wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major dealer in Liverpool is almost certainly someone who has his prints on file for previous crimes. They'll have suspected that account was him for a while but didn't have reasonable grounds, this photo clearly convinced someone it gave them that. But sure, let's take talking points from another country and apply it here too to get angry because question mark

Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't.

> Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't.

The photo accompanying the article has the fingers blurred out. In the original photo the fingers must have been clearly visible, because that’s how the police are claiming they identified the man.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#135

Post by spoonjim »

tptacek wrote: post #113
anomaloustho wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After looking at the Wikipedia page for Parallel Construction[1], there is a subsection about the UK, it mentioned that one could argue that parallel construction is now a concept that applies in the UK as of 2016. It then points to an article on The Register subtitled “Enshrining parallel construction in English law”[2]. It looks like Section 56(1) of the Investigatory Powers Act prohibits “any content of an interce…

The UK doesn't even have the exclusionary rule --- in fact, most countries don't. There's no need for "parallel construction" there.

In many countries the parallel construction is to protect illegal police methods. They torture a criminal in an abandoned shed, or threaten to have his mother evicted, to get his list of associates. Then they cook up things like “fingerprints in a cheese photo” to make themselves seem very clever and also keep their methods concealed.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#136

Post by StavrosK »

bdowling wrote: post #134
StavrosK wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't.

> Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't. The photo accompanying the article has the fingers blurred out. In the original photo the fingers must have been clearly visible, because that’s how the police are claiming they identified the man.

It's motion blur, evident from the blurring of the letters. Unless the police added motion blur to the entire photo (why?), they would appear to be stretching the truth.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#137

Post by spoonjim »

StavrosK wrote: post #119
weego wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major dealer in Liverpool is almost certainly someone who has his prints on file for previous crimes. They'll have suspected that account was him for a while but didn't have reasonable grounds, this photo clearly convinced someone it gave them that. But sure, let's take talking points from another country and apply it here too to get angry because question mark

Do you see any visible fingerprints on the photo? I don't.

The police may have downsampled before releasing and the website may have downsampled before posting to save bandwidth.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#138

Post by formerly_proven »

bobthepanda wrote: post #108
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been various rather nasty trials in which vital defense info was ruled both secret and inadmissible; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity covers the most famous examples, particularly Matrix-Churchill which I'm just about old enough to remember. I believe ECHR 1998 has improved the situation a bit, although the existence of a court outwith the UK to which people can appeal their human rig…

Railing against the ECHR is arguably one of the things that sparked Brexit.

The ass of that joke is the UK being very influential in creating the ECHR in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#139

Post by bobthepanda »

nojokes wrote: post #132
bobthepanda wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Railing against the ECHR is arguably one of the things that sparked Brexit.

Can you elaborate this a little?

A key point of Brexit is to "restore sovereignty." At least some of that ire is directed at the ECHR, which can issue rulings that override British rulings and parliament. One of the examples of this occurring is when the ECHR overturned a British ban on voting for prisoners. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirst_v_United_Kingdom_(No_2)

Like many things independence from the ECHR has not actually happened yet. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=7e0577d5-e617...

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#140

Post by watwut »

akarma wrote: post #100
pc86 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not meaning to imply that the USC applies to anyone other than US citizens from a legal standpoint. Not only am I not a lawyer, but I'm meaning to draw a distinction between legal rights and human rights in this context. I'm saying that the rights codified in the USC are inalienable rights. The US government isn't granting the freedom of speech, and it can't take it away. The right exists because you're a human b…

As an American happy to live in a country with all our protected freedoms, there are some parts of the Constitution that other reasonable countries don't agree with, and that's fine. There are other cultures with other value systems and they're no less valid. (1) Freedom of Assembly, part of our 1st Amendment, is one example. A French court recently decided a protest in Paris could not take place. The court rationale…

USA also allows and disallows protests at various places and times. And they have just legislated new additional laws about that.

But I give you that personal guns being framed as anti goverment tyranny is profoundly us thing. I find out odd also because those guns tend to be stockpiled by pretty authoritarian groups and very rarely by civil rights groups.

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