How Intuitive Are Macs Really? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#121

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

agustif wrote: post #109

drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

1) Just use [spacebar] on any view to open up the image in spotlight? The problem with the mac is that much has been done on top of older patterns, etc.... If you're a hardcore user though, I'd take Mac over windows or linux any day.

I've used Macs since 1988, and had no idea this hidden feature existed!

UI features don't just need to work well, they also need to be discoverable, or they might as well not exist. The old school Apple was good at that stuff. Recent decades, not so much.

PS Thanks for teaching me this trick!

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#122

Post by drewg123 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

carlob wrote: post #116

drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

I switched to Linux a while ago because I was annoyed at Apple for a number of reasons so I'm not exactly an Apple fanboy. However regarding your 1) there is one thing I'm sorely missing and that's QuickLook. No matter what finder view you are in, if you are in a folder with pictures (or even Word documents) you can press the space bar to see an almost full screen preview. Arrows for navigation work as they would if…

Wow, spacebar? I've been using a mac on and off since 2004 and I never knew that. Talk about hidden, undiscoverable UI elements.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#123

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

You have to customise MacOS to show full file paths and hidden files. Someone at Apple decided that users couldn't be trusted with that super-secret information, but anyone who reads HN is going to find that frustrating.

I go back to Windows occasionally and I still hate every single thing about it. The tiles, the file system, the telemetry, the intrusive updates that guarantee I'll have to wait for an undefined time before I can get some work done, the driver lottery (still...) And many more.

MacOS is more of a workable OS with some really stupid warts. They should have been fixed years ago, but they probably won't be, ever.

Finder is particularly bad, and has needed a complete overhaul for at least a decade.

But Apple's other apps are heading in an MS-ish direction - which is more controlling and constraining, and less intuitive and transparent. It really shouldn't be as hard as it is to export photos from Photos, and the screen grabber should just allow saving to any file location instead of getting in the way with some random-ish defaults, one of which can be customised, if only you remember you need to.

This all reeks of second-rate middle management - untalented PMs trying to justify their existence with poorly-designed updates while more serious issues go unaddressed.

Apple are a weird company. When they're in the zone they can hit it out of the park, like with the M1. But - ironically - desktop UI design is not the model it could be. If MacOS 11 ever happens (not holding my breath...) it would be just as likely to be a step backwards as forwards.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#124

Post by jolux » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

baryphonic wrote: post #73

pantulis wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or "uninstalling" apps, always kind of confusing on Windows. Not on the Mac. Still, I think it's not that the Mac is not that intuitive any more, it's that Windows has more or less caught up.

Uninstalling on macOS is actually pretty tough, since ancillary files are not cleaned up. I end up installing a set of third party utilities whenever I set up a new Mac that help me with a bunch of the weird stuff that isn't handled by default. (including AppCleaner and ShiftIt for uninstallation and window management, respectively). Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the co…

>Windows makes it pretty easy with the one "add or remove programs" section of the control panel.

Except there's no guarantee that uninstallers will remove all ancillary files on Windows either, especially because Windows developers seem to have a habit of just spraying configuration files and serialized state all across the filesystem haphazardly with little concern for organization.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#125

Post by city41 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

I used Macs exclusively from MacOS 7 up until about 3 years ago. And I will always stand by Macs were easier to use, more consistent and more intuitive before OSX. Yes, the OS was archaic architecturally and it was downright primitive in many ways. But the UX was far superior.

Finder is bizarre in that it hasn't really changed much at all in 20+ years.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#126

Post by FabHK » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

To be fair, it all makes sense if you a) adopt the view that an application is just a file like any other, and b) remember the pre-network days: to install a program, you insert a disk, and then just pull (=copy) the program from the disk to where you keep your applications.

And with the internet and downloads, the process has not changed much except that the disk is replaced by a disk image.

With that mental image, the process seems straightforward enough. And the App store, of course, enables one-click installation as on smartphones.

So, I guess the impediments are that people don't know how to deal with disks and disk images, and the idea that one ought to "install" software, rather than just copying to where one wants it.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#127

Post by jolux » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

lbriner wrote: post #43

pantulis wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or "uninstalling" apps, always kind of confusing on Windows. Not on the Mac. Still, I think it's not that the Mac is not that intuitive any more, it's that Windows has more or less caught up.

That depends on your opinion. Deleting an app folder on MacOS is no less intuitive than right-clicking an app in windows and choosing Uninstall. Certainly in most OSs (I think), there is a good chance that more got installed than just a single folder so anyone who isn't exclusively on a Mac is going to think that deleting a folder is asking for trouble.

>Deleting an app folder on MacOS is no less intuitive than right-clicking an app in windows and choosing Uninstall.

Here's a question though: What are you right-clicking in Windows that gives you an uninstall option? Windows is so complicated that most of the time it's not even the app itself. You certainly won't get an Uninstall option right-clicking the executable in Program Files, you have to find a magic shortcut somewhere that is keyed up in the registry with the relevant uninstaller package.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#128

Post by enos_feedler » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

Sounds like Chrome just needs to be in the App Store

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#129

Post by ForHackernews » Mon, May 24, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

agustif wrote: post #109

drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

1) Just use [spacebar] on any view to open up the image in spotlight? The problem with the mac is that much has been done on top of older patterns, etc.... If you're a hardcore user though, I'd take Mac over windows or linux any day.

> Just use [spacebar] on any view to open up the image in spotlight?

Just press a random key on the keyboard? How exactly is that intuitive?

Keyboard shortcuts are the absolute worst for discoverability.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#130

Post by wlesieutre » Mon, May 24, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

Agreed on the defaults, if you want to improve this there are a few related options to be aware of:

1) Edit the toolbar and add "Path" dropdown

2) View menu -> Show path bar

3) Cmd + up/down arrows to navigate up and down the path hierarchy

But of course, when talking about how intuitive Macs are, having all that hidden by default doesn't exactly make it easy to understand where you are in the filesystem. It feels a bit like the Mac side of their desire to just not have a user visible filesystem on the iPad, which thankfully they've given up on it because shooting documents back and forth between apps via Share buttons was terrible.