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Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

dolphin-emu.org

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Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#81

Post by tw04 »

threeseed wrote: post #32
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

>Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

It seems to me a rather simple fix: give users an "unrestricted mode" just like Android has the ability to install from third party. By default keep it locked down, but allow the USER to make that decision, with ample warnings all over the place about what they're about to do.

Heck, for all I care make them go to an Apple store to have it "unlocked" so an employee can walk them through what it actually means and how dangerous it is so the average joe schmoe doesn't just click the button by accident.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#82

Post by Cthulhu_ »

threeseed wrote: post #32
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

That restriction is already circumvented with e.g. React Native though, or any kind of webview - companies can change their whole apps without a re-review. They MIGHT get called out for it if someone reports it, but in theory it's very possible.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#83

Post by gjsman-1000 »

tw04 wrote: post #81
threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

>Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers. It seems to me a rather simple fix: give users an "unrestricted mode" just like Android has the ability to install from third party. By default keep it locked down, but allow the USER to make that decision, with ample warnings all over the place about what they're about to do. Heck, for all…

If you do that, guess what Fortnite would do right now. Guess what Facebook would do to get around Apple’s privacy restrictions right now. Guess what a ex-boyfriend would do right now to install a blocked spying app.

For better or worse, the App Store being the exclusive way into the iPhone forces third parties to deal. Otherwise, they just tell the user to make the choice for them.

If you even listen to interviews with Apple engineers, it sounds like they are less afraid of willing and understanding people and locking their phones, as much as they are afraid of third parties essentially forcing their users to unlock their phone to install their products, and thus getting an unfair exemption from Apple’s protections while smaller companies probably wouldn’t have the clout to force users to do this, resulting in an uneven playing field.

I do get the Apple Store one more, but as history has shown, people literally go to the Apple store to get iCloud theft locks removed by impersonating the owner and faking receipts.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#84

Post by my123 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #71
philistine wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s undeniable that a whole class of ARM software was prevented from even being conceived because it has to pass the App Store’s Byzantine set of rules. On the other hand, I see so many software developers vehemently refuse to notarize their Mac versions. Notarization is far less egregious and it pains me to see so many straight up refuse to even consider it as an alternative to the iron grip of the App Store.

As a non-Mac developer, what does it mean to notarize a piece of software? Is that something you need to do in order to be able to run a piece of software these days?

It's used as part of Gatekeeper for software downloaded from the internet.

See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/notarizin... for the notarisation process and https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202491 for the customer-facing documentation, which includes how to work around it when needed.

Gatekeeper can be totally disabled via sudo spctl --master-disable.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#85

Post by xvector »

caddybox wrote: post #70
threeseed wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year. I think they might just survive without your business. And pretty sure it demonstrates that their formula of security and privacy over openness is the right one for them.

> Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year. > I think they might just survive without your business. The parent post makes some the argument that the restrictive nature of iOS makes it unappealing to certain users. You counter that with a discussion-ending argument about how much money Apple makes. Not everything that makes billions of dollars is immune to criticism. Especially since Apple markets the iPad…

> You counter that with a discussion-ending argument about how much money Apple makes.

The implication is that Apple's design decision favors far more users than it doesn't.

In other words, the same design decisions that cost Apple one HNer nets them general consumers - so Apple can definitely survive without the HNer's business.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#86

Post by saagarjha »

api wrote: post #47
threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers. This nails it. I want full control and the ability to run anything on my computer. I want my phone to "just work" and I never want to fuck with it or worry about what's on it. They are different devices with different roles. What I do wish for is open ARM hardware with similar performance. I am totally certain that it is coming now that Apple has…

I mean, there is nothing stopping you from using your phone in that way even if it was open like your computer is…

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#87

Post by xvector »

hnlmorg wrote: post #17
drrotmos wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also not Ecco the Dolphin (the game).

Nor Flipper -- the cult TV show that featured a crime fighting dolphin (I kid you not).

Nor Flipper, the tamogatchi-like hacking device [1].

[1]: https://flipperzero.one/

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#88

Post by roofwellhams »

judge2020 wrote: post #65
fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

There are many other devices locked down much more than iOS devices and this argument would apply to them as well. The only reason apple is the subject is because people want to take advantage of the massive, expensive engineering work that has happened over the past 15 years (in both hardware and software) without any of the limitations that go towards actually paying for that engineering effort (and enable many hig…

You already paying 1000usd for an iphone. How much more is it worth?

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#89

Post by [deleted] »

judge2020 wrote: post #65
fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

There are many other devices locked down much more than iOS devices and this argument would apply to them as well. The only reason apple is the subject is because people want to take advantage of the massive, expensive engineering work that has happened over the past 15 years (in both hardware and software) without any of the limitations that go towards actually paying for that engineering effort (and enable many hig…

[deleted]

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#90

Post by saagarjha »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27
jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

It’s useful for security if you’re running arbitrary JavaScript you’ve downloaded from the internet. Its utility in sandboxing old games is (mostly) dubious.
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