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Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

bbc.co.uk

51–60 of 208 posts

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#51

In reality, the police were likely violating his rights and doing some good old fashioned parallel construction. They had his prints from his products, knew who he was already, waited until they watched him post a picture of cheese, then claimed it was only the picture that caused him to be caught. This is a clear change in police methods, enabled by tech, and an abuse of your constitutional rights if this was a U.S.…

The BBC is used to nudge people into behaving as preferred by higher-ups - it's a propaganda organisation. The police are basically government thugs - not law abiding where they can get away with it. So whether your interpretation is correct or not, I don't know, but you're right that this story is probably untrue.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO the concept of "parallel construction" is mostly an USA specific thing because USA legal doctrine is heavy on fourth amendment application and "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that can make evidence inadmissible depending on how it was obtained. But all those things and rights are specific to USA, not in general, and not even for other common law countries. As far as I understand, such "fruit of the poison…

I agree with you on the legal doctrine piece, but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence. Every person has the right to speak their mind, to defend themselves, to not incriminate themselves, etc. etc. with all the caveats and potential nullifications that accompan…

The position that the US constitution applies to the UK is a pretty crazy piece of legal maximalism in the first place, but there is plenty of US caselaw that it doesn't apply equally to non-US nationals even within the US.

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a...

https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=592919&p=4170926 (which reminds me of the US failure to ratify certain international conventions under which it provides weaker rights)

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#53
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why you think the photo on the BBC is the original photo. It’s probably been re-compressed half a dozen times as it was passed between police to reporter to CMS to CDN.

it's not compression blurry though, it's out of focus

In this other source, the fingerprints of the thumb and the pinky are almost visible https://www.merseyside.police.uk/news/merseyside/news/2021/m... Anyway, the other fingers look too out of focus to detect anything.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#54
post #52
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the legal doctrine piece, but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence. Every person has the right to speak their mind, to defend themselves, to not incriminate themselves, etc. etc. with all the caveats and potential nullifications that accompan…

The position that the US constitution applies to the UK is a pretty crazy piece of legal maximalism in the first place, but there is plenty of US caselaw that it doesn't apply equally to non-US nationals even within the US. https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=592919&p=4170926 (which reminds me of the US failure to ratify certain international conven…

I'm not meaning to imply that the USC applies to anyone other than US citizens from a legal standpoint. Not only am I not a lawyer, but I'm meaning to draw a distinction between legal rights and human rights in this context.

I'm saying that the rights codified in the USC are inalienable rights. The US government isn't granting the freedom of speech, and it can't take it away. The right exists because you're a human being.

The fact that a country doesn't recognize it as a right doesn't change its status.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#55
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO the concept of "parallel construction" is mostly an USA specific thing because USA legal doctrine is heavy on fourth amendment application and "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that can make evidence inadmissible depending on how it was obtained. But all those things and rights are specific to USA, not in general, and not even for other common law countries. As far as I understand, such "fruit of the poison…

I agree with you on the legal doctrine piece, but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence. Every person has the right to speak their mind, to defend themselves, to not incriminate themselves, etc. etc. with all the caveats and potential nullifications that accompan…

> but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence

As an American I find this a very surprising interpretation, and I doubt anybody in my close social circle would agree with it either.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#56
How do they legally get from "it's his hand holding the cheese" to "he's the true source of all the bravado in this nefarious forum" to "he's a drug dealer"?

If all they needed was a fingerprint, certainly there are more convenient ways to go about it. He's got to touch something other than his product.

This smells more like a false narrative contructed to cover up the actual source / methods for cornering him. Maybe law enforcement had someone on the inside? And still does? Or a loyal flunkie turned on him? But holding cheese? (Note: I'm aware this is technically possible. I'm questioning it's use in ths case.)

Much like the news stories of "car stopped on interstate and police find _____ amount of ______ in the trunk." Right. Of all the cars traveling the police randomly pick the car filled with drugs? Sounds great. But too random too often to be legit. They knew which car to stop but they're not going to say how they knew.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#57

In reality, the police were likely violating his rights and doing some good old fashioned parallel construction. They had his prints from his products, knew who he was already, waited until they watched him post a picture of cheese, then claimed it was only the picture that caused him to be caught. This is a clear change in police methods, enabled by tech, and an abuse of your constitutional rights if this was a U.S.…

I don't think there is a fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine in UK. Of course there might be other reasons not to admit to illegally obtained evidence.

There isn't. Until very recently (Human Rights Act) justice was deemed to have been served by bringing all evidence to the court.

The ECHR gave some rights which now have to be balanced against justice but its still anything goes. There is some interesting court ruling on Azima Rakia hacking case too.

Interestingly the courts are waiting for the case where computer hacking infringes on people's right to privacy...

Rather than pretend i'll quote a leading case. Woman faked her hand palsy and was filmed illegally by the insurance agents...this is the appeal rulign (so important in uk legal terms)

Jones v University of Warwick [2003] EWCA Civ 15 https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/151.html

That leaves the issue as to how the court should exercise its discretion in the difficult situation confronting the district judge and Judge Harris. The court must try to give effect to what are here the two conflicting public interests. The weight to be attached to each will vary according to the circumstances. The significance of the evidence will differ as will the gravity of the breach of Article 8, according to the facts of the particular case. The decision will depend on all the circumstances. Here, the court cannot ignore the reality of the situation. This is not a case where the conduct of the defendant's insurers is so outrageous that the defence should be struck out. The case, therefore, has to be tried. It would be artificial and undesirable for the actual evidence, which is relevant and admissible, not to be placed before the judge who has the task of trying the case. We accept Mr Owen's submission that to exclude the use of the evidence would create a wholly undesirable situation. Fresh medical experts would have to be instructed on both sides. Evidence which is relevant would have to be concealed from them, perhaps resulting in a misdiagnosis; and it would not be possible to cross-examine the claimant appropriately. For these reasons we do not consider it would be right to interfere with the Judge's decision not to exclude the evidence.

Mr Weir's submission that we should determine the issue on the basis of the facts as they were before the district judge is not realistic. Nonetheless, it is right that we should make clear that we do not accept that the criticism of the claimant's legal advisers for deciding not to reveal the contents of the video films in issue to their medical experts is justified. It was sensible to defer doing so until it was known whether the evidence could be used. While not excluding the evidence it is appropriate to make clear that the conduct of the insurers was improper and not justified. We disagree with the indication by Judge Harris to the contrary. The fact that the insurers may have been motivated by a desire to achieve what they considered would be a just result does not justify either the commission of trespass or the contravention of the claimant's privacy which took place. We come to this conclusion irrespective of whether Mr Weir is right in contending that in this particular case the evidence could be obtained by other means.

Excluding the evidence is not, moreover, the only weapon in the court's armoury. The court has other steps it can take to discourage conduct of the type of which complaint is made. In particular it can reflect its disapproval in the orders for costs which it makes. In this appeal, we therefore propose, because the conduct of the insurers gave rise to the litigation over admissibility of the evidence which has followed upon their conduct, to order the defendants to pay the costs of these proceedings to resolve this issue before the district judge, Judge Harris and this court even though we otherwise dismiss the appeal. This is subject to Mr Owen having an opportunity to persuade us to do otherwise. In addition, we would indicate to the trial judge that when he comes to deal with the question of costs he should take into account the defendant's conduct which is the subject of this appeal when deciding the appropriate order for costs. He may consider the costs of the inquiry agent should not be recovered. If he concludes, as the complainant now contends, that there is an innocent explanation for what is shown as to the claimant's control of her movements then this is a matter which should be reflected in costs, perhaps by ordering the defendants to pay the costs throughout on an indemnity basis. In giving effect to the overriding objective, and taking into account the wider interests of the administration of justice, the court must while doing justice between the parties, also deter improper conduct of a party while conducting litigation. We do not pretend that this is a perfect reconciliation of the conflicting public interests. It is not; but at least the solution does not ignore the insurer's conduct.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the photo they've shown is clearly way too low quality to get fingerprints. Presumably they actually used his palm (the article sort of mentions it), and they have a really small pool of people that they suspected so they could just manually compare his palm with known palm prints. I think that's fine though.

I don’t know why you think the photo on the BBC is the original photo. It’s probably been re-compressed half a dozen times as it was passed between police to reporter to CMS to CDN.

[deleted]

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, defense lawyers aren't allowed to reveal details if it harms future police operations. So again you don't need parallel construction.

Does this result in a lot of sealed/private hearings where methods of gathering evidence are discussed? I'd imagine the majority of criminal prosecutions would involve at least some "trade secrets" (for lack of a better term) on the part of the police.

There have been various rather nasty trials in which vital defense info was ruled both secret and inadmissible; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public-interest_immunity covers the most famous examples, particularly Matrix-Churchill which I'm just about old enough to remember.

I believe ECHR 1998 has improved the situation a bit, although the existence of a court outwith the UK to which people can appeal their human rights violations is controversial and unpopular with the right.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#60
post #54
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The position that the US constitution applies to the UK is a pretty crazy piece of legal maximalism in the first place, but there is plenty of US caselaw that it doesn't apply equally to non-US nationals even within the US. https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/c.php?g=592919&p=4170926 (which reminds me of the US failure to ratify certain international conven…

I'm not meaning to imply that the USC applies to anyone other than US citizens from a legal standpoint. Not only am I not a lawyer, but I'm meaning to draw a distinction between legal rights and human rights in this context. I'm saying that the rights codified in the USC are inalienable rights. The US government isn't granting the freedom of speech, and it can't take it away. The right exists because you're a human b…

Yes, that's the usual human rights rationale but it's practically a theological one - that the rights have always existed and exist even if you can't see or action them.

Interestingly ECHR doesn't bother to define what a right is or where they come from, leaving the implicit position being simple legal realism that the rights exist because this document says they do and the parties agreed to it. https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Archives_1950_Convention_...

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