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Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

bbc.co.uk

41–50 of 208 posts

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#41
post #12

The implication is that police are routinely scanning all Encrochat photographs to extract fingerprints and other biometric details to match with existing databases.

Isn't it just as likely that the police had a hunch and guided a chat with the aim of having the perp take the (or some other) incriminating photo?

Or even more prosaically — they were monitoring that chat for anything juicy at all, and got a break when the conversation organically went to cheeses and the guy posted that pic

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#42

In reality, the police were likely violating his rights and doing some good old fashioned parallel construction. They had his prints from his products, knew who he was already, waited until they watched him post a picture of cheese, then claimed it was only the picture that caused him to be caught. This is a clear change in police methods, enabled by tech, and an abuse of your constitutional rights if this was a U.S.…

[deleted]

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#43
post #7

This is a very good example of showing that decentralized anonymous communication channels of any type are not enough to ensure free speech. I'm not saying that this particular example has anything to do with free speech, but it does show that you can not speak freely even over encrypted anonymous channels. You can still easily be doxed. We can not rely on any technology to ensure freedom of speech. We need to engend…

This was over one of those all in one encrypted messaging phones where you have to trust a single entity. Such things are eventually subverted by the powers that be due to that single point of failure. So I don't think this can be extended to some sort of general principle.

> So I don't think this can be extended to some sort of general principle.

Very clearly it can. There is no technological solution to doxing. You have to censor yourself, you have to hide facts, you can not speak freely.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#44
post #7

This is a very good example of showing that decentralized anonymous communication channels of any type are not enough to ensure free speech. I'm not saying that this particular example has anything to do with free speech, but it does show that you can not speak freely even over encrypted anonymous channels. You can still easily be doxed. We can not rely on any technology to ensure freedom of speech. We need to engend…

Are you arguing that arranging to commit a crime is protected speech? I don't think that one will fly anywhere, even in the US, let alone in the UK with no constitutional protection only the much weaker ECHR one.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#45

In reality, the police were likely violating his rights and doing some good old fashioned parallel construction. They had his prints from his products, knew who he was already, waited until they watched him post a picture of cheese, then claimed it was only the picture that caused him to be caught. This is a clear change in police methods, enabled by tech, and an abuse of your constitutional rights if this was a U.S.…

IMHO the concept of "parallel construction" is mostly an USA specific thing because USA legal doctrine is heavy on fourth amendment application and "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine that can make evidence inadmissible depending on how it was obtained. But all those things and rights are specific to USA, not in general, and not even for other common law countries. As far as I understand, such "fruit of the poison…

I agree with you on the legal doctrine piece, but most in the US (myself included) would say that the US Constitution doesn't grant anybody any rights. It codified inalienable rights that exist for all people merely by virtue of their existence. Every person has the right to speak their mind, to defend themselves, to not incriminate themselves, etc. etc. with all the caveats and potential nullifications that accompany those rights. The fact that some countries may violate those inherent rights is irrelevant, and the fact that some of those countries may be common law is equally irrelevant.

It's possible to believe both that Liverpool and the surrounding area is better off without this man free, but that the UK as a whole is worse off for their frequent violation of rights with regard to those in the US Bill of Rights.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#47
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parallel construction is also used to protect sources and methods.

In the UK, defense lawyers aren't allowed to reveal details if it harms future police operations. So again you don't need parallel construction.

Does this result in a lot of sealed/private hearings where methods of gathering evidence are discussed? I'd imagine the majority of criminal prosecutions would involve at least some "trade secrets" (for lack of a better term) on the part of the police.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the photo they've shown is clearly way too low quality to get fingerprints. Presumably they actually used his palm (the article sort of mentions it), and they have a really small pool of people that they suspected so they could just manually compare his palm with known palm prints. I think that's fine though.

It's very possible the police blurred the fingerprints in the image they distributed.

Not really, the cheese is also blurred. And not uniformly so, very gradual. It looks like a photographic artifact, not post-processing.

I'm glad they were able to take this guy off the streets but there's a smell to this IMO and it's not just the cheese.

Edit: Someone else shared the link to the uncropped picture: https://www.merseyside.police.uk/news/merseyside/news/2021/m... . Fingerprints are still too blurry but his palm lines are very clear. It could indeed be those.

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#49
post #12

The implication is that police are routinely scanning all Encrochat photographs to extract fingerprints and other biometric details to match with existing databases.

Yes, they compromised the network through the usual means (the center) and recorded all the messages for a while. https://www.reeds.co.uk/insight/encrochat/

Re: Cheese photo leads to Liverpool drug dealer's downfall

#50
post #44
post #7

This is a very good example of showing that decentralized anonymous communication channels of any type are not enough to ensure free speech. I'm not saying that this particular example has anything to do with free speech, but it does show that you can not speak freely even over encrypted anonymous channels. You can still easily be doxed. We can not rely on any technology to ensure freedom of speech. We need to engend…

Are you arguing that arranging to commit a crime is protected speech? I don't think that one will fly anywhere, even in the US, let alone in the UK with no constitutional protection only the much weaker ECHR one.

Read the second sentence of my post.
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