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Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

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Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#501

> Cook used more privacy and safety claims to defend that system, saying it would be both insecure and inconvenient to let apps process payments separately This one is always funny to me, because sellers of physical goods are of course totally exempt from IAP rules, because it would be untenable otherwise. I can type my card number directly into the Amazon app and buy a paperback without any intervention from Apple.…

On the surface, ebooks as a category of content make sense to allow direct sale as you described.

However, your use of Amazon also serves as an illustration of Apple’s case.

Among kindle enthusiasts, Amazon had notoriously neglected the Kindle product hardware and software platform.

From neglecting Goodreads to stagnation, to not including USB-C on its very expensive Oasis product, the whole brand is a picture of “we don’t improve it because we don’t have to.”

Kindle ebooks do offer interactive behavior like showing commonly highlighted passages and other light features.

But in most of the hardware, the interfaces are very laggy in comparison to iOS.

As much as text selection on iOS still isn’t great, it is certainly better than what you get on Oasis right now.

If Amazon cared to create a stronger social experience around goodreads and kindle for iOS users any time soon, it will leverage a huge amount of investment Apple has made in their software and hardware.

This is money Amazon had failed to invest themselves and it shows.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this view is it assumes developers need the iPhone more than the iPhone needs developers, which is absolutely not the case. It’s symbiotic certainly—for better or worse far more money is spent on iOS than Android—but without apps the iPhone would be basically useless. In my opinion, Apple needs to acknowledge that, rather than acting like developers owe them the shirt off their backs.

> without [third party] apps the iPhone would be basically useless. It was good enough for the first year before the App Store existed, and it sold well enough to prove it. Even now, it's plenty capable right out of the box without installing anything. A device in 2007 that had first-party apps for email, web browsing, YouTube, weather, calendar, clock, address book, phone, calculator and music player, that also sync…

It was fine for the time (just about)—it would very much not have been fine over the last 10 years or so.

Just look at Windows Phone, the biggest sticking point of every single device was that the app support just wasn’t there. While it’s hard to say with certainty, it seems that’s what ultimately stopped the platform gaining any traction.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that the same logic? Amazon does not charge end users for allowing services they use to run on AWS.

AWS charges for bandwidth. Should Apple start charging the developer $1 for every download?

That seems a bit price gougey given how much bandwidth costs...but sure, as long as other AppStores are allowed on the platform, that's fine.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that the same logic? Amazon does not charge end users for allowing services they use to run on AWS.

AWS charges for bandwidth. Should Apple start charging the developer $1 for every download?

they could charge $0.09/GB like S3. that would be interesting actually, because it's not exactly free so developers need to optimize for it

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple services makes sense. Developers have been so steeped in propaganda about "payment processing" that they have no idea what the 30% commission is for. A court or regulator could force Apple to allow t…

They make billions from that 30% cut, and the only reason they can do that is because they disallow all other payments, or even a mention in your app that you can pay elsewhere. They would never be able to charge that much if they allowed any competition, which is exactly why they need to be regulated to allow it. They can't charge a cut of revenue unless they monopolize payment processing, so if as you say they star…

No they get the billions from their intellectual property. There's a bunch of pro-user, pro-Apple, and pro-developer reasons why they are the single source for apps and payment processing, but that's not the source of the billions, as I just explained.

There's a bunch of reasons why it'd be a PITA for everyone involved if they were forced to do this, but no matter what happens the revenue sharing is never going to go away as long as Apple wants to keep that business model. All the frictional costs (more lawyers and accountants) to verify they collect the right royalties is exactly why courts are ultimately going to side with Apple, because the current system is the ideal one for all parties.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#507
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cook didn't say anything about tracking purchases, or even getting a cut as such. He said they would need to find another way to invoice developers, which just means another revenue model, that's all.

Invoice developers for using their intellectual property? How dare Apple expect a revenue share from developers who use their tools and libraries. Companies that make tools and libraries should be forced to give them away for free. Like Unreal Engine. Completely free, no exceptions.

They charge royalty on revenue

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#508
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But charging them simply because they make money while on a device that an end-user owns? What Apple are trying to do is to make back the CapEx of developing the OS frameworks developers are relying upon. Those frameworks often make up a non-negligible fraction of an app's USP, i.e. they're partly why the developer is making money. Apple see whatever slice of market value their OS frameworks added to the developer'…

Who the hell needs an OS or a device that can't run third party apps? Their devices are nothing without those. Those frameworks aren't optional frills for the sake for developers' benefit, they're basic functionality that end users already paid hundreds or thousands of dollars for. End users paying is how it always worked on desktop too before they spread this monopolistic poison there too. It's amazing how far peopl…

> Who the hell needs an OS or a device that can't run third party apps?

The first iPhone didn't run third-party apps. Also, the average number of apps paid for per smart-device is Those free apps — and their users — are essentially free riders on the CapEx of OS framework development, since Apple can't put a tax on income an app doesn't have. So the remaining apps need to be taxed at a higher rate to compensate.

> Those frameworks aren't optional frills for the sake for developers' benefit, they're basic functionality that end users already paid hundreds or thousands of dollars for.

There are basic OS frameworks that are just table-stakes for having a mobile OS, yes. But there are also some incredibly-specialized frameworks — things that differentiate iOS development from Android development. Reasons devs choose to build an iOS-exclusive app.

Apple has, for example, a 3D AR framework, with specialized (neural-network; depth-sensing) hardware in every device put there just to enable the 3D AR framework. No first-party apps really use it for anything. It's just there for third-party devs.

That's not "basic functionality." That's an extremely-specialized tool that only a few apps will take advantage of, and for those apps, it's a large part of what makes the app a distinctive experience that can't be had on Android.

If not for the fact of requiring special hardware that only Apple can add to the phone, it wouldn't be an OS feature; it'd be a fancy standalone SDK that Apple recoups costs on by selling to developers. Same as they sold e.g. WebObjects, back when.

Think of it like this: a city will build most roads "for free", with no increase to your taxes. Those roads are table-stakes to running city infrastructure. They take them out of the budget by reallocating funding away from other things, because citizens would riot if their taxes went up with every road built.

But some very-capital-intensive roads that not everybody in the city needs equal access to — e.g. bridges — are built by the city to be toll roads. The business model for these roads is different: rather than the costs of building them coming from the treasury, they're passed on directly to the people who are most advantaged by the road being built: exactly those who will still use the road even with a toll, meaning exactly those who are economically gaining from travelling the road.

More often than not, that's businesses (e.g. freight/logistics services.) The 18-wheeler delivering your groceries is paying to use the more-efficient route over the bridge, because that route saves it money, and so increases its profits; and the trade still makes sense even when a part of those increased profits go to the city.

> It's amazing how far people will go to justify a monopoly squeezing everyone it deals with just because they have a good brand and make nice products.

I'm just trying to explain here why Apple think they're owed 10% of devs' money. I'm not saying they're right in that perception. Just that it's clearly a tempting chain of logic from their perspective.

Also, it's a chain of logic that I believe is correct when applied to small businesses (like the aforementioned small music artist getting deeply sampled by a song that makes a lot of money.) I don't see any difference in applying it to a monopoly.

Apple's App Store monopoly enables the extraction of "what they think they're owed" on a scale not possible with regular market players, and I'd say that that's definitely bad — but the answer isn't to reject the whole chain of logic of "your profitable thing is 90% my copyrighted IP, so I want royalties" being a valid business model. It just means that Apple should have the power that enables that extraction taken away.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#509
post #2

Tim Cook's line of argument seemed a bit weird to me. On one hand he's saying that he doesn't know if Apple's customers would be able to distinguish between Apple's good and holy curated store and Epic's filthy shitheap of porn and blackjack, but he's also saying that Apple's customers definitely want Apple's App Store as-is. > Lawyer says, “if people really value Apple’s curation and Apple’s App Store, even if there…

There's nothing weird about it. If there were no food regulations, I don't know if I'd be able to pick restaurants and grocery store brands that were safe to eat. But I definitely know I want safe food to eat. Most people want safe food but they want the government to figure out what that means. Same thing here -- most people just want a safe app store. They don't want the work of having to figure out which app store…

Your comparison lags. There are food regulations yet there are a lot of stores where I can buy food.

I trust the government to impose regulation on food manufacturers but I trust vendors with their selection of manufacturers. Why should the store landscape on iOS be any different where I put my trust in the store?

This would actually mirror my food shopping as well. I trust my vendor, why would this not translate to store operators on the OS? Aside from the fact that Google and Apple have done a piss poor job with this... I'm fairly certain I would trust Epic, Valve or MS (or even EA and Ubi).

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#510
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I hope multiple App Stores don’t become a thing on iOS. The reason I like iPhone is that I am assured that apps I download from App Store are not shit and curated by Apple." Then dont install those other app stores and only rely on apples curated list, if other app stores ever become a thing on ios.

The counter-argument runs like this: Third party developers want to get their apps onto the iPhone, because the platform has a lot of users, and there's a lot of money to be made. However, they will be forced to play by Apple's rules, which (according to the argument) is good for the customer, as the custodian of the platform has a vested interest in keeping them happy. Now, if 3rd party stores were allowed, Apple's…

The question is does Apple's bargaining power come from monopoly power? That's exactly what makes it anti-competitive.
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