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Atomic Gardening

en.wikipedia.org

41–50 of 101 posts

Re: Atomic Gardening

#41
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. > Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). I agree with your broader point that much of what we eat is GMO. But isn't selective breeding a categorically different process of modifying an organism? My understanding is that s…

It’s interesting to read Greenpeace and other environmental groups’ writings to see what they are objecting to. It seems they are primarily concerned about two types of issue; one is why I’d call “safety”: gene transfer/escape into wild species, unintended ecological consequences, human safety of consuming GM plants. Tho other group is around “licensing”: essentially a deep concern about going down a path where plant…

GMO plants are modified to make them more difficult to propagate and produce seeds, in order to protect intellectual property. The ecological consequences of those variations being released into the wild is devastating and has adversely affected farmers who do not grow GMOs.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#42
post #9

It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). Mutagenesis, which atomic gardening falls under, has been around since the 1920's using x-rays and chemicals and currently doesn't normally fall under most GMO definitions because its…

Let me do my best to convey some potential concerns. To say that they’re all GMO so what’s the problem is sort of either an ignorant or disingenuous overloading of the term. Sexual reproduction in a way sort of fits with that category (I mean it’s just selective breeding crowdsourced). But if we restrict GMO to only mutations, yeah there are actually legitimate issues.

Mutations occur naturally, and overtime nature has evolved methods to withstand this. Like the one thing that all organisms share, DNA-wise, is the code to faithfully copy DNA. You literally never see mutations in this code because nothing survives. Beyond that we do see random mutations all the times, but they’re usually harmful or at best don’t do much. Then occasionally there are beneficial mutations but they’re very rare and they happen over long periods of time. Atomic gardening is using this exact process albeit speeding it up bu increasing the speed that mutations occur.

On the other hand, genetic engineering is selective in a way that there is no natural precedent for. We literally have no idea if it’s not harmful or not. I’m not trying to say this to sound alarmist I just mean philosophically speaking you can’t prove that.

I’ll add as an aside that I don’t think the condescension that you see all the time regarding GMO is a food faith argument. There are plenty of scientific reasons to give pause to testing this stuff out in production.

As to concrete, practical reasons why we should give pause before engineering life with such wild abandon, I’d say recombinant DNA is one, but also so is the danger of just good ok’ mono-crops.

Now let me explain that I’m not personally and categorically anti-GMO. I think it’s wonderful technology that we can do so much with. I just think it’s dumb for people who don’t have degrees in genetics to go on the internet and say that people who have any concerns are “amusing” or stupid or whatever because science. The truth is it all depends abd there’s absolutely zero reason to think the GMO can’t go horribly wrong as some kind of rule.

I’m on my phone so some of this may read weird but I hope my point comes across as I meant it. Basically science is a philosophical branch rooted in skepticism.

One last thing I’ll say is there’s a bit of selection bias happening. You never hear from scientist who raise legitimate concerns because industry has a huge influence in people’s ability to do research and this their careers.

So in summary, mutations happen all the time in nature. Some “good” some “bad”. There are dangers but there’s been billions or years of evolution to buffer against it. Targeted genetic engineering like CRISPR is only the same un that there’s mutations but that’s where the similarities end. Like natural mutations they can be good or bad. There’s nothing unscientific or amusing about giving a second thought if maybe there are additional differences yet to be seen downstream. To say otherwise is categorically unscientific. We should absolutely proceed with caution and there are absolutely problems like the ones I listed. I mean, many of the people here are programmers. How many of us trust any code?

It’s a spirit of temperance and skepticism that im putting fourth, and I actually think the burden of proof should lie on a case by case basis.

Does that make sense?

Re: Atomic Gardening

#43
post #9

It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). Mutagenesis, which atomic gardening falls under, has been around since the 1920's using x-rays and chemicals and currently doesn't normally fall under most GMO definitions because its…

The problem with GMO is that you end up with varieties that don’t naturally come into balance with people and the environment, especially since the reality is that GMO implies large scale industrial farming with crop monocultures. People don’t want to experiment with their lives and discover decades later that some obscure ingredient in a pesticide has some long term effect. Nor do they want to have issues like water tables dropping and aquifers getting depleted because the high yield crops are not sustainable with a region’s water cycle. Cooks are worried about losing the diversity of crops that support their culinary diversity. Farmers are worried about getting bullied and economically enslaved by seed manufacturers. These are all risks - and your evaluation or perception or appetite for risks may be different - but I don’t think it’s illogical for people to be wary of GMO or want to take it slow, especially when operating in a world where humans regularly get things wrong and where human processes (like government approvals) can be corrupted.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. > Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). I agree with your broader point that much of what we eat is GMO. But isn't selective breeding a categorically different process of modifying an organism? My understanding is that s…

Again mutagenesis I would consider "manipulating DNA directly using technology" its just using a less targeted and more random approach. Every variation of life today including poisonous and deadly plants and animals came from random mutation over time. For example tomatoes and eggplants and peppers are closely related to tobacco and to deadly nightshade. How likely would a random mutation create a poisonous version,…

> Again mutagenesis I would consider "manipulating DNA directly using technology" its just using a less targeted and more random approach.

Right, I would put mutagenesis in my second category of "modern GMO". (Edit: I interpreted your use of mutagenesis as the controlled use, as in the original topic of this post. Maybe that's not what you meant?)

> Which process is more likely to produce harmful side effects? Is there data to warrant engineered organisms are more likely or is it just unwarranted fear?

That's essentially what my question was, for traditional artificial selection (selective breeding) versus genetic engineering. I wasn't making a point one way or another; it was a genuine question.

The point about random mutations occurring naturally is fair. Perhaps part of what scares people is simply the speed of the process, combined with not really knowing or understanding what technology is being used in the labs.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#45
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to read Greenpeace and other environmental groups’ writings to see what they are objecting to. It seems they are primarily concerned about two types of issue; one is why I’d call “safety”: gene transfer/escape into wild species, unintended ecological consequences, human safety of consuming GM plants. Tho other group is around “licensing”: essentially a deep concern about going down a path where plant…

GMO plants are modified to make them more difficult to propagate and produce seeds, in order to protect intellectual property. The ecological consequences of those variations being released into the wild is devastating and has adversely affected farmers who do not grow GMOs.

> GMO plants are modified to make them more difficult to propagate and produce seeds

Can you name a single commercially available GMO that has this property, aside from being a hybrid (hybrids don't breed true, but that's because they're hybrids, not because they're GMOs)? It is my understanding that there's no real need for any such technology anyway, as legal protection suffices.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#46
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. > Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). I agree with your broader point that much of what we eat is GMO. But isn't selective breeding a categorically different process of modifying an organism? My understanding is that s…

It’s interesting to read Greenpeace and other environmental groups’ writings to see what they are objecting to. It seems they are primarily concerned about two types of issue; one is why I’d call “safety”: gene transfer/escape into wild species, unintended ecological consequences, human safety of consuming GM plants. Tho other group is around “licensing”: essentially a deep concern about going down a path where plant…

The argument against IP protection for GMOs makes no sense to me at all. If there were ever a technology for which IP protection was appropriate, it's this one. The plants literally manufacture themselves, so if the IP wasn't protected the investment in the creation of the variety could not be recouped. There would be one season of sales then the market would be gone.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#47
post #9

It always amuses me to find that people are against GMO foods yet almost everything we eat is GMO depending on how you define it. Almost every crop and livestock has been genetically modified through selective breeding (domestication). Mutagenesis, which atomic gardening falls under, has been around since the 1920's using x-rays and chemicals and currently doesn't normally fall under most GMO definitions because its…

The problem with GMO is that you end up with varieties that don’t naturally come into balance with people and the environment, especially since the reality is that GMO implies large scale industrial farming with crop monocultures. People don’t want to experiment with their lives and discover decades later that some obscure ingredient in a pesticide has some long term effect. Nor do they want to have issues like water…

We have large scale industrial farming and monocultures without GMOs. We could have GMOs without large scale industrial farming and monocultures. So what you are saying really doesn't make sense.

These sorts of scattershot incoherent arguments are a red flag that the position being defended wasn't arrived at by honest reasoning.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#48

I'm immediately curious what percentage of non-GMO certified produce are cultivars that were produced this way. This approach strikes me as being much more likely to accidentally produce unexpectedly harmful effects than modern gene recombination.

Yeah, you're basically scrambling things across an entire genome with no way to account for all of the random and unspecific changes that may occur.

One thing to consider though is that our bodies have evolved to eat all sorts of DNA - fragments and full genes - without directly incorporating it into our own genomes.

I'd personally be more concerned about plants expressing new allergenic proteins or that sort of thing, but it seems like there are already some decent methods in use to detect that.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#49
post #2

I heard about this on the radio and was surprised I hadn't heard of Atomic Gardening before. Basically, farmers and gardeners would expose large quantities of seeds and plants to varying degrees of radiation, and look for useful mutations. Rio Red grapefruits, accounting for 3/4 of Texan-produced grapefruit, were originally created by Atomic Gardening! From the Grapefruit wiki, which links to the Atomic Gardening one…

The Rio red variety was not developed in 2007. It was developed in the 1980s, in, you guessed it: Rio, Brazil. When I first heard about this some handful of years ago I was naturally curious about how a researcher in Rio in the 1980s had access to thermal neutrons without a fission reactor. After a lot of reference digging and discussion on physics forums we came to the conclusion it was most likely a penning trap st…

What makes you think "Penning Trap"? Neutron generator tubes have been used since forever in the oil well logging industry. They use an electric field to accelerate deuterium ions into a solid target containing deuterium or tritium.

As far as I know, fusors have never been commercially successful as neutron generators.

Also, why would one use neutrons for plant mutagenesis? Photons are far easier to make. An x-ray tube will produce a given (biologically effective) dose at a very small fraction of the cost of a neutron generator.

Re: Atomic Gardening

#50
post #5

How likely is a random mutation in a plant to be dangerous to the eater? E.g. a protein sequence changed such that a toxic molecule is produced. If subtle or slow acting that could pass a lot of expensive testing and make it to market. But is it risky enough to worry about? Sure it could occur with natural mutations too but at a much lower rate.

I think the most likely scenario would be the plant expressing a new (or modified) allergenic protein, and it seems like there are some decent methods to look for those things already in use.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251449018_Mitigatin...

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