Just imagine car manufacturers demanding you to provide listing of every trip, person traveling in the car, every product delivered, so that the manufacturer can get their percentage of the value of goods and services, on top of the value of the car itself.
Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
351–360 of 851 posts
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your argument presumes apps get capabilities by default. OSes have been invented where apps get nothing implicitly (the object-capability model); it's a design problem to install mass-market apps with usable security in that paradigm, and it might be a difficult one. But there's been a little work on it and it's worth pursuing.
Sure, but when you grant capabilities you can't be sure what is being done with them. That's why you need static analysis, behavioural analysis and the whole test regime of App Store review to catch these sorts of activities. That's why Apple has an app store review process, otherwise they could bake all the restrictions into the OS itself. With permissioning for side loaded apps you can't know or enforce activities…
The capability you give an app for X doesn't have to be the raw system X. It can interpose some policy or tracking-of-use, or let you revoke just the X, or fake the whole X to begin with, etc. This is one of the things distinguishing the object capability model from basic sandboxing. Another is that the set of kinds of X's is open-ended -- anyone can make up higher-level abstractions like an advertising server with a defined protocol, so that users who've gotta have a free ad-supported app can use one without giving it unlimited and unaudited network access.
I'd expect the store to come with standardized packages of capabilities for common kinds of apps.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Epic is a great example. Their own store lists alternative stores on the Epic store, like itch.io. But they don't take a cut of games bought from those stores. Once you launch itch, you're in itch.
Steam is a better example as Epic is operating at a loss position to disrupt the incumbent.
My friends and I play Apex through Steam, which I downloaded for free. When you click to purchase "Apex coins", it takes you straight to EA's website. Apple wants to enforce a cut on every purchase of in-game currency. Steam does not do this.
And Valve allows you to sell steam keys on your own website also without paying the cut, so long as you don't undercut the steam store.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#354Other news on this has quotes from Tim Cook saying that they'd have to find a way to track purchases on IOS and bill developers so that Apple still gets their cut when using other payment processors. For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple…
>For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple services makes sense.
Developers have been so steeped in propaganda about "payment processing" that they have no idea what the 30% commission is for.
A court or regulator could force Apple to allow third-party payment processing, side-loading, and third-party app stores, and Apple could change their business model to directly charge for the tools and the SDKs that every developer uses to make native apps. The only way to avoid those costs is the way that already exists today: make a web app.
Right now the payment processing costs have been integrated into the commission, but they could charge whatever the market could bear to license their IP for a royalty, so in effect developers could end up paying more.
There's nothing in law that says Apple can't charge money for their software. That the use of developer tools and SDKs were free on other platforms like the Mac doesn't mean that it's legally required that it be given away for free.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately, Apple has to maintain this rule because otherwise developers will implement workarounds to avoid charging in the App Store altogether. Remember when eBay charged a commission on the sale price but not shipping? Suddenly $50 items became $1 with $49 shipping -- so eBay had to charge the commission on the shipping too even though it didn't seem "fair". Same here -- every app would turn free, and charge t…
This is bull. Apple deserves a "rent", and not a "cut". They are providing infrastructure and services, and they deserve a minimum rent for these, which they already take. But Apple should not take cut on every purchases made through the app. It makes no sense. AWS does not take a "cut" on every Netflix subscription bought. They just charge for the storage and traffic. This is how App Store should function.
By that logic, should Apple charge something like $1/user/month to allow companies to publish apps and run software on iPhones?
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
AWS pricing is extremely thorough and not at all comparable with Apple's App Store: - AWS charge you on bandwidth used, Apple don't charge developers for the number of downloads - AWS charge you on compute time, Apple don't charge you for ongoing use of their services beyond one initial charge for app submission - AWS charge you for storage, Apple don't charge you for storing your app I'm not a fan of Apple's App Sto…
> - AWS charge you on compute time, Apple don't charge you for ongoing use of their services beyond one initial charge for app submission Yes they do, the fee is yearly, and they make billions in revenue from this. Google charge one-time.
Not to mention that you have to purchase expensive apple hardware to develop for iOS.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hypothetical progression: Epic sets up alternative App Store which becomes the only source of Fortnite 2.0, which is popular enough to drive installs of new alt store. Some other newly-popular viral app comes along (probably a social app that causes its users to exert pressure on their social group to join) and gambles on going with the Epic store only, piggybacking on Fortnite’s beachhead. Repeat. This process norma…
Another comment mentioned this. The fragmentation issue that comes up with multiple app stores. I agree that it is an issue that can come up. Pretty sure epic is trying for something like this in android. But it dosent take away from my point that an alternative store does not affect the quality of apps in the main store. As for an alt store becoming normalized I feel that users will only install the necessary app fr…
"I feel that users will only install the necessary app from the alt store and not anything else."
Have you ever had to wipe a relative's computer to get rid of the malware-infested browser toolbars they installed, not knowing any better? Or worse, pay a ransom in bitcoins to unlock the billing systems that help control a gasoline distribution pipeline? You may be somewhat overestimating the sophistication of users when it comes to technology.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
One holds your saved games. The other connects you to local emergency services, the global economy, your financial assets, your government, your family, your education, and increasingly - your health care provider. To suggest they should be treated the same is downright laughable . Yes, the underlying technology is similar, but their importance and impact on society is orders of magnitude different.
From a legal perspective though, where this matters most, the law makes zero distinction between single purpose and general purpose computing devices whatsoever. Furthermore, they are all computers capable of running code from anywhere and the law views them as such. The distinction you are drawing that consoles are "specific" and iPhones are "general purpose" has no bearing in the law, nor in my opinion should it. F…
Strong disagree. We should regulate based on what's best for consumers and the free market.
Consider that different classes of vehicles are regulated differently, even though they all rely on the same underlying technology.
The law should serve the people, not some rigid doctrine.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#359Other news on this has quotes from Tim Cook saying that they'd have to find a way to track purchases on IOS and bill developers so that Apple still gets their cut when using other payment processors. For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple…
Unfortunately, Apple has to maintain this rule because otherwise developers will implement workarounds to avoid charging in the App Store altogether. Remember when eBay charged a commission on the sale price but not shipping? Suddenly $50 items became $1 with $49 shipping -- so eBay had to charge the commission on the shipping too even though it didn't seem "fair". Same here -- every app would turn free, and charge t…
That argument might hold water if Apple allowed for other methods of software installation. Since they don't, that argument is pretty hollow.
Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let the market decide? If it's so obviously terrible it will fail.
Like with cigarettes.
Please don't make unsubstantial comments on HN. You're not being as clever as you think you are.
Edit: The context of my pro-free-market comment is app stores. Of course it's not absolute. You very well know this. Please don't argue in bad faith.