Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing • Hacker News Board

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#181

Post by mapgrep » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #165

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Other news on this has quotes from Tim Cook saying that they'd have to find a way to track purchases on IOS and bill developers so that Apple still gets their cut when using other payment processors. For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple…

Unfortunately, Apple has to maintain this rule because otherwise developers will implement workarounds to avoid charging in the App Store altogether. Remember when eBay charged a commission on the sale price but not shipping? Suddenly $50 items became $1 with $49 shipping -- so eBay had to charge the commission on the shipping too even though it didn't seem "fair". Same here -- every app would turn free, and charge t…

Not true, the eBay analogy is pretty flawed. Unlike with eBay this isn’t a matter of simply shifting classification of revenue - the app store is guaranteed to be the most convenient and obvious way to charge for any given app or service related to that app due to Apple’s other rules. They prevent developers from mentioning or linking other payments avenues. And if you want to charge in app of course it’s only via Apple. From what I’ve seen only big existing and strong brand services like Netflix are able to overcome these barriers and even some of those still pay Apples feee (Spotify).

The playing field remains tilted heavily in Apples favor. But they (apparently) wanted even more - extensive compensation for economic activity that happens far from the App Store even when the link to the App Store is secondary.

The economic history of this sort of activity is well documented, and the extent to which it distorts markets well established. It’s plainly an antitrust violation, and both society and the software market would be free-er and more prosperous if our laws were enforced here.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#182

Post by JadeNB » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

duped wrote: post #105

maxsilver wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they did it with bank transactions, Apple Pay, Venmo, Robinhood, etc then people would be up in arms. Would they? Don't they literally already do this too? Isn't Apple Card https://www.apple.com/apple-card/ them literally skimming off the top of every financial transaction, despite them doing nothing but provide a branded whitelabeled Goldman Sachs Mastercard? (admittedly, a very pretty fancy card) I don't think…

A credit card with standard transaction fees and interest is very different than taking 30% of every transaction on the platform while also having the power to forbid venders on the platform from increasing their prices to make up the difference.

> A credit card with standard transaction fees

But they're only standard because the credit cards asserted these fees, we got used to them, and now they seem obvious, right? (I remember plenty of merchants who used not to accept credit cards to avoid the fees, but, whether by bank pressure or just the weight of expectation, there aren't many of those any more.)

It surely won't be too long until these fees are 'standard' too, in the sense that they're totally usual and customary, whether or not they're reasonable.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#183

Post by tyingq » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

"While Rogers’ questions don’t necessarily indicate how she’ll rule"

Really? Here's some quotes from her:

“The gaming industry seems to be generating a disproportionate amount of money to the IP you’re giving them and everyone else”

“You don’t have competition in those in-app purchases, though,”

“It doesn’t seem to me that you feel any pressure or competition to actually change the manner in which you act to address the concerns of developers”

I suppose that doesn't say exactly how she'll rule, but it seems like there's at least some indication of how she feels about it.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#184

Post by kbelder » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

simondotau wrote: post #163

paul_f wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a developer's net profit margin, after dev and marketing costs, is less than 60%, then Apple makes more money on the app than the developer. 30% is outrageous.

You’re saying that 60% of 70% is less than 30%?

He's saying that Assuming Apples takes their cut from gross revenue and not margin, which I believe is true.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#185

Post by tyingq » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

karmakaze wrote: post #176

crazygringo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, Apple has to maintain this rule because otherwise developers will implement workarounds to avoid charging in the App Store altogether. Remember when eBay charged a commission on the sale price but not shipping? Suddenly $50 items became $1 with $49 shipping -- so eBay had to charge the commission on the shipping too even though it didn't seem "fair". Same here -- every app would turn free, and charge t…

There are other ways if you're honestly trying to be fair. eBay for instance could have made 10% of (price+shipping) exempt assuming 10% was the nominal fraction before abuses.

I never understood why eBay didn't resell shipping to their sellers. They could have gotten very favorable rates from the carriers with that kind of leverage.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#186

Post by an_opabinia » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

deergomoo wrote: post #28

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Other news on this has quotes from Tim Cook saying that they'd have to find a way to track purchases on IOS and bill developers so that Apple still gets their cut when using other payment processors. For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple…

> If a developer isn't using that infrastructure, they don't owe anything I’ve been following this case and the only thing I can conclude is that their executives genuinely believe that Apple is responsible for all commerce that happens on an iPhone. It’s bordering on delusion. Without third party developers the iPhone would be nothing by now.

> their executives genuinely believe that Apple is responsible for all commerce that happens on an iPhone

iPhones concentrate rich users who buy stuff. There’s nothing delusional about this. Likewise, Epic Game Store giving away games they paid huge advances for also makes those games more money than they ever would directly selling on Steam.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#187

Post by truth_ » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #165

wccrawford wrote: post #4

Other news on this has quotes from Tim Cook saying that they'd have to find a way to track purchases on IOS and bill developers so that Apple still gets their cut when using other payment processors. For me, this is way over the line. If they want to charge developers to be on their store, fine. I don't have a problem with that. And charging for using them as a payment processor makes sense. Charging for using Apple…

Unfortunately, Apple has to maintain this rule because otherwise developers will implement workarounds to avoid charging in the App Store altogether. Remember when eBay charged a commission on the sale price but not shipping? Suddenly $50 items became $1 with $49 shipping -- so eBay had to charge the commission on the shipping too even though it didn't seem "fair". Same here -- every app would turn free, and charge t…

This is bull. Apple deserves a "rent", and not a "cut". They are providing infrastructure and services, and they deserve a minimum rent for these, which they already take.

But Apple should not take cut on every purchases made through the app. It makes no sense.

AWS does not take a "cut" on every Netflix subscription bought. They just charge for the storage and traffic. This is how App Store should function.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#188

Post by kbelder » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #179

simondotau wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re saying that 60% of 70% is less than 30%?

Doesn't seem quite right. Users Will Pay: $100 Dev Profit per $100: $60 Apples Cut/Profit: $30/$29.99 Dev Cut/Profit: $70/$42

You're holding their margin % equal, but cutting 30% off revenue probably won't cut 30% off their margin costs.

In reality it's too complicated to figure with a simple formula. But, he was right if margin is a fixed cost (like, all initial development). If margin is purely an incremental cost (like network costs that increase with each sale), then he would be wrong.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#189

Post by wgjordan » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #40

Hamuko wrote: post #2

Tim Cook's line of argument seemed a bit weird to me. On one hand he's saying that he doesn't know if Apple's customers would be able to distinguish between Apple's good and holy curated store and Epic's filthy shitheap of porn and blackjack, but he's also saying that Apple's customers definitely want Apple's App Store as-is. > Lawyer says, “if people really value Apple’s curation and Apple’s App Store, even if there…

You're making Tim Cook sound stupid and/or evil, but he does have a point. > If customers really value real, safe drugs, even if there's multiple drug suppliers (some offering fake, unsafe drugs), people should still go to a pharmacy? > It seems like a decision that they shouldn't have to make. > Will people not be able to distinguish between safe drugs and fake unsafe drugs? > They've never had to do it before.

Analogy to drug safety makes no sense - FDA regulates drug safety and 'fake' generic drugs are very much allowed, so customers may choose generic drugs without needing to distinguish safe/unsafe themselves.

Re: Tim Cook’s Fortnite trial testimony was unexpectedly revealing

#190

Post by Hamuko » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #177

Hamuko wrote: post #2

Tim Cook's line of argument seemed a bit weird to me. On one hand he's saying that he doesn't know if Apple's customers would be able to distinguish between Apple's good and holy curated store and Epic's filthy shitheap of porn and blackjack, but he's also saying that Apple's customers definitely want Apple's App Store as-is. > Lawyer says, “if people really value Apple’s curation and Apple’s App Store, even if there…

The average iPhone user would not be able to tell the difference between an official App Store and a sophisticated copy.

Even though one of them is preloaded on the device and the other one has to be separately added?