Live data from Hacker News

Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political opinions are not protected in the same way, nor should they be, as the protected classes you cite (gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc).

Religion is a protected class. Why not politics? We either need to add more protected classes or do away with the whole concept and return to free association.

I actually think more generic worker's rights is better than expanding protected classes, which will always have holes.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We are still talking about adding some code points to Unicode here, right? Or did I miss something? This is a matter of representation and inclusion, which are worthwhile goals that should matter to people in positions to make decisions. Also, this is trivial and doesn't matter. >Not Indian or Black. Almost certainly he reads as white to most people. The blue hair and yellow skin was not meant to signify the charact…

It’s not about me reading race into the Simpsons, I am saying that the “simpsons yellow” was not intended as a pan-racial skin tone and does not read that way for many people. The fact that minority characters are given a different skin tone than yellow, and the statements of the cartoonists suggest to me that the creators themselves do not view it that way, so it does not seem unreasonable for other people to not ac…

There is something at best blind, and more likely to my mind, dishonest about the "It's just a trivial change" argument. It's used to bludgeon dissent. "You can't possibly be such a jerk you'd not do this small thing"

It isn't such a small thing - beyond making a bunch more work for a bunch of people, beyond picking which N other colors get recommended, beyond complicating UIs for all messaging apps, you've now raised the stakes and potentially introduced race into every message. Why didn't Sarah use the slightly darker thumbs up for me, when I'm slight darker than average? She must be a racist!

This really does happen -- I recently had someone complain about a person who only spoke somewhat broken English (as a second language), for not using inclusive language, and they specifically held it against them when selecting them for service (which has nothing to do with DEI issues).

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, though it is still a little soul crushing. Obviously making big bucks and providing for your family is more important than debating some cancel culture social justice warrior at work who’ll never be convinced anyway, but listening to some eye rolling inducing faff every day and feeling like if you just told the truth you’d be fired makes you feel weak after a long time. Especially if you vehemently…

Moodles and chitowneats I wonder what are some examples of things you'd like to say / opinions you have, but that might make the coworkers angry?

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen it happen - I'm just curious why? Don't think it's fireable or anything, just... weird.

When I'm bored at work I imagine ways to sew discord with tasteless emoji. It's not a sincere temptation.

Super minor note: it's "sow" (as in spread seeds, "reap what you sow" "sow wild oats) as opposed to "sew" (needle and thread...)

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#955
The problem isn't politics, though. The problem is that you have two mainstream belief systems that do not share the same reality, that are mutually exclusive. One has to be completely wrong. This is not about perceived polarization, black-and-white thinking and stuff. Those camps live in two different worlds, and the truth isn't somewhere in between. They don't disagree about some facts, they disagree more fundamentally about the question how facts are produced.

Naturally, the people in-between or the ones that are silent are seen as an enabler of the other side. And to a certain degree, in this polarized situation, that is true. After all, the other side wants to take away your fundamental rights. And again, that is factually true - the other side does want to take away or not grant some rights from/to you, and you see those rights as fundamental.

So the question is, can you ignore and escape politics? Should you? Do you have to get involved? Well, generally, you should get involved - of course: Society doesn't work otherwise. However, in this situation, its understandable if you skip out, with tensions running that high.

But then how can these two camps can ever come together? The solution can certainly not be that two separate groups enforce themselves in their beliefs - because unfortunately, it seems that this only works by vilifying the other side, only increasing tensions.

So it seems that talking politics at work is the lesser of two evils? Or is it too late for that and stuff's just gone too far?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#956
post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, get new friends. They sound horrible. So many stories. My skip level manager had me in a 1-on-1 once and said something along the lines: “you probably got the green card because Trump likes your demographic”. (I have an EB-1 extraordinary ability green card, and I assume they were talking about me being straight and white). What the fuck am I supposed to say there? Was absolutely speechless. Moments like that a…

[flagged]

> You must know that Joe Rogan is a polarizing figure and posting him in any but a right-wing community is going to be a troll for reactions. That doesn’t strike me as “bizarre,” it strikes me as the obvious outcome for your choice.

This is interesting to me, because I found out about Joe Rogan from some liberal friends that were recommending him. Doesn’t Joe label himself as. liberal? Why does the left hate Joe?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#957

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this experiment has obviously failed and this attempt to create a less toxic work environment through activism has resulted in a thinly veiled attempt to create a more toxic work environment for those who do not want to conform to neo-marxist orthodoxy.

>neo-marxist orthodoxy This is one my main gripes with conservatives right now. You go to any of the places you congregate and alongside the more reasonable scepticism towards woke culture, there’s this constant talk of the rise of “neo-marxism” I have seen zero evidence for this. None Besides very basic issues like minimum wage, on the whole, the new left does not care about economics. There’s the occasional “bad ca…

Not quite. BLM in particular is called Marxist because the people who actually organize that movement have called themselves "trained Marxists" and the British BLM website for a while claimed their goals involved overthrowing capitalism and the nuclear family. If you don't think BLM is Marxist that's understandable because those facts didn't get much attention, but, they definitely are. Adopting a clenched fist as a logo should be another hint.

At any rate, it's mostly because Marxism is not really an economic ideology, even though communism is often presented as an alternative to capitalism. Communism is arguably not an economic system at all given the absolutely minimal detail Marx provided about how a communist economy was actually meant to work. Marxism is best understood as a packaged set of views about the current state of the world and human nature, the correct/perfect state of the world and human nature, and a plan for how to get from here to there.

A key component of Marxist thought is that the current state of the world is one of "alienation" (today we would say oppression), in which a small minority subtly oppress the majority in such a way that the majority don't realize they're oppressed. But if they were to realize, they could rise up and via a revolution overthrow their oppressors. This would establish a transient state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) that would eventually, once society was finished being transformed, sort of melt away leaving communism as a kind of superior form of existence in which there's no oppression, human nature has fundamentally changed and as a consequence everyone is equal.

It's that last bit that gets the bulk of the attention because, firstly, the rest is kind of vague, and secondly, the socialist revolutionaries were expected to deliver obvious, real-world benefits for their revolution and focused on the "everyone is economically equal" bit as something that could be achieved via large scale government action. But to Marx that was only one part of it. The rest was about human nature.

The modern left, especially in Silicon Valley, is easily identifiable as a new variant of this basic ideology:

- Society is split into oppressors (white men) and everyone else (women, other races). People are always one of these groups and cannot move between them. Many oppressed people don't believe they're oppressed, but that's because they've been deceived and it's very important to make them realize that white men are oppressing them.

- People are either really good, or really bad, and people who are really bad (anyone who doesn't subscribe to this ideology) need to be suppressed, expelled, or silenced in various ways.

- The world is suffering under vaguely defined oppressive forces (Marx: imperialism, the Woke: patriarchy/systemic racism). If these forces are defeated, humanity will be elevated to a superior form of existence.

- Exceptionally aggressive "with us or against us" tactics are legitimate and even required to reach this state.

There are a bunch of other similarities, but that's the gist.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#958
post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Downvote button is not just for disagreeing guys. I’m not even allowed to downvote because I don’t have enough karma but it seems like those who are deemed worthy to are abusing it.

Downvoting this just further proves my point.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're naive. Maybe if your a worker on a factory line and only being paid to turn a wrench, then sure. But at tech firms, you're being paid to think.

Yeah - you are being paid to think to solve the problem specifically related to your work, not being lost in thoughts about your personal political beliefs.

That's not my experience at all. Maybe if you're a junior engineer, then you are told what to do, but generally speaking these companies have many senior people who have to decide for themselves.

The idea that a company has money and that workers are just cogs is an outdated way of thinking. These stories are often focusing on the ethical concerns of senior engineers, often ones whose job is directly tackling problems of ethics (such as ethics of AI, or censorship systems).

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#960

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "no politics at work" isn't neutral, it means supporting the status quo by way of defining what counts as "politics". Is calling someone by their preferred pronouns, or wearing a mask during the pandemic politics?

i can’t stand this argument. if your not actively trying to X then you support Y. it’s cherry picked grandstanding. its a way to single people out without a conversation. cancel culture in the microcosm. you do not have to act in any specific way to hold some political beliefs and no one should judge you for your beliefs

But it can sometimes be true in the sense that if you do not support X, you are willing to let Y happen. Things like climate change, mask wearing and stuff.

You can hate that argument, people can still accuse you of it and they might be right.

Post reply on HN