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Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

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Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#21

Post by Gauge_Irrahphe »

Gauge_Irrahphe wrote: post #8

This is not a native/nonnative problem, but more a high vs low content languages, with native English being at the bottom of low content. Low content tend to stay in the abstract, and leave out the details. High content give detailed descriptions and let the abstractions to be deduced by the listener. This often leaves low content speakers wondering how things are being communicated, while they've had the issue descr…

Further problems are caused by figurative speech, as high content languages often use concrete analogies to convey something abstract, while low content speakers use abstract metaphors to convey something concrete. This also causes miscommunication, sometimes to the point of misinterpreting what is meant literally and what is meant to be figurative.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#22

Post by airhead969 »

WalterBright wrote: post #19
airhead969 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My next door Danish neighbors learned English in the late 70's and early 80's by watching TV. The guy worked at Spectra-Physics and drove a Wankel Mazda RX-7 that he backed-in to their garage.

Ah, Gilligan's Island English :-) I've heard many people tell me they learned English from GI.

Lol. Probably. And MASH.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#23

Post by oytis »

marmaduke wrote: post #14

> A group of nonnative English speakers is in a room .. then an American walks into the room .. understanding goes down. I work in a research group with a lot of international people across Europe and elsewhere. As an American there for years, I got used to doing what they say here, speaking at the lowest common denominator, but when a new native English speaker (could be British or Australian too) enters, the same e…

As a Russian I did a hitchhiking tour over Northern Europe when I was young, and while I gained some "fluency" in English as a result, the quality of my language use dropped noticeably. Not only because I was forced to use the first language construct I can pull from my head, but also I had to simplify it to be understood.

Being personally interested in equality, acceptance etc. etc. I find it sad to see more sophisticated language use dying off being replaced by a version optimized for ease of understanding by everyone.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#24

Post by Dave_Rosenthal »

Gauge_Irrahphe wrote: post #8

This is not a native/nonnative problem, but more a high vs low content languages, with native English being at the bottom of low content. Low content tend to stay in the abstract, and leave out the details. High content give detailed descriptions and let the abstractions to be deduced by the listener. This often leaves low content speakers wondering how things are being communicated, while they've had the issue descr…

Interesting concept that I wasn’t familiar with. But for anyone else googling it, the concept is a spectrum of high vs low ‘context’ (not ‘content’) culture/language.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#25

Post by ryando »

metters wrote: post #6

Sadly I also experienced a native (Canadian iirc) speaker mocking me for my pronunciation of 'power'. Indeed, I used heavy German accent on that specific situation, because I was excited at that moment. It shocked me quite a bit and I didn't know what to do back then. Now I can laugh it off - English was my first foreign language but only one of three in total back then. And it must have sound funny (like Arnold Schw…

As an American in Germany trying to speak German, I've made some effort to hide my accent. But then I think about Arnold and Werner Herzog. Would they be who they are without their accents in English? Then again, no one here has ever mocked the way I speak.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#26

Post by MattGaiser »

nindalf wrote: post #20

I’m not in the same boat as the folks in these articles who’ve clearly suffered much worse treatment. I had a relatively easy time. But personally, I hated it when someone complimented my English. It felt infantilising, like how it would feel if someone appreciated you for tying your shoelaces all by yourself. The next time an American or British or Australian person tells me how good my English is, I’m telling them…

You have to remember that to many of us Americans and Brits and Canadians, speaking any amount of any other language is impressive. We are comparing it to the 10 words we can speak of something else.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#27

Post by Gauge_Irrahphe »

Dave_Rosenthal wrote: post #24
Gauge_Irrahphe wrote: post #8

This is not a native/nonnative problem, but more a high vs low content languages, with native English being at the bottom of low content. Low content tend to stay in the abstract, and leave out the details. High content give detailed descriptions and let the abstractions to be deduced by the listener. This often leaves low content speakers wondering how things are being communicated, while they've had the issue descr…

Interesting concept that I wasn’t familiar with. But for anyone else googling it, the concept is a spectrum of high vs low ‘context’ (not ‘content’) culture/language.

I changed it on purpose (such as low vs. high "bitrate" languages) because I feel the "context" explanation is a misinterpretation of what actually occurs.

As in the commonly discused example of saying "no": High content language speakers say no by giving an explanation of why fulfilling the request would be difficult (a relatively large amount information is transmitted) which, to their surprise, is taken as a yes by the low content speaker.

And adapting to this is difficult, because high content speakers prefer their information, while low content speakers feel inundated and prefer their simplicity.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#28

Post by noisy_boy »

lovelearning wrote: post #13
noisy_boy wrote: post #4

Most of the time, the non-native speakers learn English from the books instead of absorbing the local dialects/nuances since they don't hear people around them speaking English. However, depending on the quality of books / teachers, this means they pick-up a weird/artificial view of English (speaking is still difficult because you don't get to do it everyday - this is changing though). Then when one lands a job requi…

"do the needful" is found in British English books from the 19th century.[1] I suspect it's officialese that never went out of usage in bureaucratic and judicial circles in former colonies. [1] : https://www.google.com/search?q=%22do%20the%20needful%22&tbm...

I didn't know that - thanks for sharing.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#29

Post by Google234 »

> "Professor C leaned back in his chair and repeated in a dramatic mock British accent, 'Intervene!' " The professor was drawing attention to Rodríguez's way of pronouncing the word.

> "Nowadays," Rodríguez notes, "I would have filed a grievance against [this professor] so heavy that he would have had to sell his soul to remain employed."

It must be fun to be a member of a humanities department today. I imagine everyone is surveilling everyone else for a slip up (microagression) in order to destroy them.

Re: Non-native speakers navigate the world of 'good' and 'bad' English

#30

Post by IQunder130 »

chmod775 wrote: post #16

> The test also requires making a clear choice between British and American spelling and vocabulary. That "can trip up people whose English comes from various sources" — say, a third from British textbooks and two-thirds from American movies, Repečkaitė said. As someone who had trouble learning English in class and ended up self-teaching using the Internet and reading English literature, I would have no hope of passi…

I'd argue nobody anywhere has actually learned a language in class, ever. You pick it up by using it, and then may or may not remember all the arbitrary rules and restrictions that were taught in school.
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