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Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

every.to

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Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#291

If you don't want to work for a startup, then don't. Many people find value in the experience whether we got paid or not. I'd rather work my ass off for a startup than spend money on an MBA. I've been a part of five startups. One of them (and the financial collapse) resulted in ruining me financially in 2009, but it was my choice. No one told me to take the job. Three were mine (two failed, one is in hypothesis mode)…

Agreed.

One of the key issue is that most people do not know or understand how the equity piece works, leaving the door opened for abuse.

It doesn't have to be complicated. Two things to check if one is granted equity or options: - What is the rough value of the stock when granted? 409A is the tool for that although it is usually quite conservative, which is good for the recipient. - Do I have the same class of stock as management/founders: ensures no funny business around dilution.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you live, but in the US, options are typically granted with a strike price equal to the latest 409A valuation, which makes the grant neutral from a tax standpoint. I don't see a world where you have to pay lots of taxes for worthless options, unless someone really screwed-up (i.e. messed up the 409 Safe Harbor election etc...) Now... if you exercise the option, that is a different story. At least in th…

> Now... if you exercise the option, that is a different story. You exercise if you leave, and startup IPOs can take many years, and most startups don't have a compelling options package for you after the first 4 years anyway. So a senior engineer who got their full 4 year equity and wants to leave, which is the most typical scenario, will indeed have to exercise and get hit by the tax bill.

You don't _have_ to exercise if you leave. That part is totally optional - in fact, the company will probably be quite happy for you to leave without exercising.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a book by a consultant who said he could immediately gauge how well a factory was operating by looking at how relaxed the average workers were. The most efficient factories almost looked like nothing was happening, because they had a smooth and efficient process and knew how to calmly handle emergencies.

if you can share the title/author of the book please do, I've seen this pattern in work as well

I can't be sure, but I think it was "Slack" by Demarco.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#294
post #138

This article isn’t about if you should join a startup vs. a big company. It’s about if you should join a startup vs. a FAANG company, which offers outrageous compensation & benefits. From that perspective, FAANG is the obvious choice 99% of the time. The more and apt comparison would be if you should work at a startup vs. a corporate job at a HP or Qualcomm. At those type of companies, compensation is not competitive…

Why do HP and Qualcomm want to offshore but FAANGs dont?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you’re making Bezos richer while you get rich yourself. the 2nd part is important

Forgoing the latter is worth not doing the former imo. Again, unless we’re talking millions per year, which 99% of FAANG employees aren’t making. The best one could hope for is high six figures, probably toping out around $800-$900k after 15 years. As I said though, this only makes sense if your goal is money. I personally don’t value money over other things like mental health and enjoying my work. I know I would hav…

why not both? get the money and do something you enjoy?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#296

This is mostly accurate but it misses one essential point. And so do many of the responses here. One of the reasons to work at a startup is to get a lot of responsibility for something interesting to you, the sort of thing that wouldn't come your way outside of a startup, for a long time, or maybe ever. The point in the article that comes closest to identifying this regards "calling", but that's not the same thing. I…

Throaway for obvious reasons. Sharing my journey:

Startup 1: joined as the first employee pretty much straight out of school. Talked to potential customers, worked on the product and overall learned lot about startups. Modest low exit some years after I left. No payout. (Europe, so not common to have equity back in the day).

Startup 2: joined the founding team of a gaming startup. The company flopped. Built and learned a lot.

Startup 3: started my own company, moved to US, raised funding etc. Learned a lot, we had to shut it down after couple of years as failed to grow the business and didn't see a way to pivot. Returned remaining funds to the investors.

Startup 4: joined another startup. One of the first 20 employees. Build a lot, learned lot. Exercised the stock when I left. The company IPOd 6 years later. $50M payout. I had early exercised some stock so some of it was federally tax free under QSBS.

Startup 5: Joined pre-IPO FAANG, got a decent salary. Learned a lot of about politics and presenting to execs. Honed my own craft and skills on the company time. $3M payout from RSU which more than half went to taxes as ordinary income.

Anyway, been lucky with two of my last companies, but I would say the earlier startups gave me skills and confidence to operate in the level I needed.

I think FAANG is nice place to make $1-2M over some years but it’s unlikely to make $10M or more.

In all my jobs there were some crunch times every now and them, but I never worked 100 hours or over the weekend consistently. After being a founder I did realize that you don’t have to work that hard for other companies.

Startup outcomes are uncertain but you can definitely affect them by choosing the right companies. If anything else, you will learn a lot likely. Time moves faster in startups, so few years in a startup might be like 5 years at FAANG, and you actually learn to build things instead of sit in meetings.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#297
I only ever worked at startups, always one of the first employees. Different projects, from consumer stuff to enterprise computer vision tech. Most of those companies failed. One was a moderate success (~100M valuation), and when a liquidity event came I made a decent chunk of money.

I love small companies, I love the chaos, I love having that bond around some crazy idea that might never work. I love being in the know about how things work and why people buy our product and all of that.

I used to want to work at Google. I have a few friends that do and the common thing I hear is that it is fun at the beginning but then it gets boring. Things move slowly, people are less excited about work and there's a lot of red tape. Not saying that it's inherently bad, it's just a tradeoff. I could see myself being into that kind of work at some point in life.

---

One thing that people often miss in these conversations is that if a company is failing it doesn't take a long time to figure it out. If you join a startup and it's tanking or you think the founders are incompetent, you can quit and go try another one. That's more or less what happened to me. I stayed for 2 months at one company, 8 months at another, one company I almost started with some people but quickly realized we'd fail because none of us knew the problem space. Then I worked at a successful startup for 5 years and we all made money.

Another reason to work at a startup is if you ever want to start your own company. Starting a company consists of doing a lot of different things, so it helps if you have some prior experience with them. I learned a ton of random things working at startups, from interacting with lawyers to doing content marketing. I recently started a company and I talk to other founders a lot and I think people who worked at startups before are better prepared compared to people who come out of large companies.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#298

Startups are the most efficient organisations in the economy. Because you have to get shit done and can't fuck around. A lot of people love to fuck around and do "fake work". Only output and impact matter. Hard work is "hard", and at startups you can't hide "not working". It sounds pedantic but that's quite the reality, a lot of people just don't know what "work" feels like, and don't want to do it.

There’s all kinds of BS you work on at a startup. Dumb projects to impress some VC to get that next round of funding... or chase something because the charismatic founder or influential investor is dead set on a crazy direction... or the CTO decides this company is their personal tech playground... or tech being overbuilt for scale that doesn’t exist yet... VCs that hold the company to impress their friends instead of actually being invested in the company’s outcomes... politics between competing groups of investors...

Its just a different set of trade offs.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#299
I don't think the author is comparing apple to apples. Instead of contrasting joining startups and joining FAANGs, we should really compare joining top-notch startups with joining FAANGs. That is, just like good companies are scarce, so are good startups. Look back, and we can see that those who join square, pinterest, airbnb, uber (before early 2015), facebook (before its IPO) all did really well. By the way, Netflix circa 2008 was still in a sense a startup, as they were still being threatened by blockbuster and most doubted their streaming initiative and the company had fewer than 150 engineers.

Even those who joined Uber in 2016 or later got something back. Uber's success did give halo to its employees. As a result, many became senior managers or directors or staff engineers in other reputed companies, even though they had started their career only 3 or 4 years before.

The trick to land on a promising startup is taking sunken cost seriously. Switch to a different company decisively and swiftly once you are convinced that the company has a bad leadership. And trust me, there will be many signs. Take Uber after 2016, for instance, you would see 1. Head of HR reported to this hot-head VP, who was the buddy of the CEO; 2. CFO told employees that they RSU hold period was a year instead of 6 months and the reason is for employees' own good; 3. CEO told employees that he didn't want to go IPO simply because he didn't want the employees to check stock price all day. 4. Uber copies pretty much every policy from Amazon yet could execute well and everyone was launching project for promotion and the company had more than 800 services. 5. CEO forced managers to A/B test packages to see how low a package can go to hire people. 6. Company splurged 10s of millions hosting extravagant parties for 4 days straight in Vegas for bogus metrics like total number of trips; 7. HRs used number of people hired as the key metric to boast that Uber was the fastest-growing company.

See? When you see so much distrust from the top, you should just jump ship, and use the halo you get from UBER to land on a different top startup, whatever that is, and rinse (in case you ended up joining WeWork).

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is relatable. It's incredibly satisfying building new things rather than maintaining decades old cruft, regardless of the paycheck, hours and stability. Also the joy of working in small nimble teams and the freedom to experiment with new technologies. Like everything in life these things are a tradeoff.

I will give you the other perspective. I get paid double what I’ve made at startups, for 35 hours a week, no overtime, no on call, and clear expectations of what success looks like for both myself and my team. I get six weeks of PTO (real weeks, not “unlimited”), 4 months off if we have another kid, and significant bonuses, while being fully remote. This is at what you’d call an “enterprise”. I am happy to keep exist…

Sounds like an outlier? Can you also tell us the actual comp? is that like 500K or 200K? YOE? I mean it's an online forum with unknown identities.
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