Live data from Hacker News

Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

every.to

241–250 of 430 posts

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely is more risk. However when I evaluate startups I'm comparing them against other jobs. Stable income it may be but the runway is short, and depending on the founders it may or not be well communicated. So it is much less stable than a job in a big company. So to me I want a good multiplier. Many of the payoffs I've seen for startups that did well for early employees put earnings on par with what I've don…

Really depends on the job market though. If the startup goes belly up but you were making good money in the interim and you can quickly find a new job, it's not much risk. A founder who eats in to savings and goes unpaid for two years is on an entirely different level of risk profile. But yes, if your primary concern is job security, in general you should not be working for a startup, regardless of how many points yo…

I'm not arguing that it isn't more risky for the founder. I'm saying that the payoff potential that remains esp when you look at the pool of startups, is almost never worth it compared to a job at a bigco, even at the top end.

Eg this is me explaining why I wouldn't work at a startup as I shoulder more risk and very very low chance at a payoff better than I could get at a bigco, and worse case you spend 5 more years at the big co and you can be getting into founder level payoffs.

At that point why even take a risk if there isn't a reward if you are a strong engineer. The only thing that makes sense to me is to be a founder, or go work a stable high paying job if you're able to.

This pay structure greatly limits access to very experienced employees for a startup.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#242
This is compellingly well-written but wrong, in my opinion. There's been a steady trickle of articles on the top of Hacker News that make essentially the same argument: your odds of choosing a successful startup are miniscule (2% in this one). I think this does people considering startups a disservice.

The conditional chance of picking a successful company to join is way higher than 2%, or whatever the median success rate of all startups is. In particular, I think really intellectually curious, ambitious, hard-working people can, for the most part, identify each other. This is really different from reading about valuations or what other people think in the news, which leads to a lot more noise. If you meet a bunch of people at the company, you can assess the their caliber for yourself.

While it's not a perfect predictor of success, it's at least the case that such people are usually working on cool, worthy projects. Based on this, it's possible to get conviction on a group before their likely success becomes common knowledge—granted it's getting harder to do this because of how much money is floating around.

To put it another way, there are a handful of companies out there right now at Series A/Series B with a dense accumulation of talent. It's probably a reasonable bet to try and join them before they hit unicorn valuations, when room for growth is smaller. And in these cases, you could be #10-#40 at a relatively de-risked company and have a really great outcome.

On the flip side, if you even remotely enjoy learning and autonomy, working at Google/Apple/Amazon/etc is probably a great way to set yourself up for existential frustration. It's not even a great financial proposition. Even at $500k/yr, it's 20 years—a whole working life—to make it to $10m, the hypothetical number from the article. Even if your first startup doesn't make it after 2-3 years, you can try again a few times and still come out ahead. This is a classic pg argument—I can't remember which essay—but the point of a startup is to compress decades of working life.

Caveat: I happened to join a startup whose success changed my life both financially and in terms of career trajectory. I'm very biased. But this is also why I feel passionately that this article's advice is bad.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#243
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's also missing from the equation here is the fact that part of the reason which startup compensation is not competitive is because FAANG salaries have been set in such a way to attract talent which might otherwise go to startups.

How true to do suspect the following hypothesis is: FAANG overpays for top talent they do not need purely to keep it out of the hands of startups and competitors who do have a present concrete need for the top-shelf talent pool?

I don't know to what extent that's an explicit strategy, but I would find it plausible to imagine that FAANG could spend a lot less on engineering - both in terms of salaries and head count - to keep their current velocity on product development, but they see a strategic interest in controlling that talent pool which they have an opportunity to exploit via capital advantage.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#244
So what is the solution for startups now?

I’ve worked the whole gamut from FAANG to 1st employee (and founder of a side project startup) and I just don’t know how they compete anymore.

We need innovation and new companies.

But for my own side project I can’t imagine hiring someone. I either are hiring if we become wildly successful or we just get acquired with our founding team and still make an outsized outcome.

It’s a grim outlook for startups but we need them

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#245
So where do startups go from here?

I feel like all I hear about is how bad it is and FAANG is now the ideal. A crazy thought for a forum whose parent company’s sole income is generated by creating and funding new startups.

So what are we going to do about it?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Recursion doesn’t scream full of Mormons to me.

There is/was a significant Mormon contingent in the Ruby community, all the way up to Matz. I've worked with a lot of Mormons in tech. You may have too and not realized it. In my experience, they tend to not put an emphasis on it, it's a more private thing.

I meant the pharma company in SLC.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are the second employee (first engineer) at a tech startup with a solo founder company, most likely you can get more than this. Nobody will give you more than what they have to unless you educate yourself and negotiate on your own behalf. You are taking the same risks as the founder and you being there is directly helping the founder raise funds and hire other engineers. Don't under-value yourself. Your previo…

> You are taking the same risks as the founder Not even close. You can quit and go get another job any second of any day with zero consequences. You have zero financial responsibility or obligations to the investors. You have zero responsibilities and obligations to clients/customers. You have zero obligations to financial institutions (banks, loans). You have zero or little reputation on the line in the industry bei…

Founder has all the control - Employee has none. So employee takes more risk.

Founder has all the information. Employee wouldn't even know, if the stock was diluted twice. Or if the company is going to seize to exist next day. Employee is in the fog - so employee has more risk.

Employee risks with her reputation. A nut case founder can consider employee a traitor for leaving the company and give bad references to future employers.

Employee has responsibility and obligations as well.

Don't get me wrong. A cutting edge startup can be amazing. But it is a lot of risk for everyone involved.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#248
This reminds me of the recent post linked on HN about "why it's a bad idea to write books."

One thing I think people miss is that founding a startup, or working at an early-stage startup, belongs to a class of financially irrational aspirations that includes other things like rock-star, novelist, actor, and professional athlete. For all these careers, the financial rewards are distributed according to a power law. A few superstars take a massively disproportionate share of rewards while the expected ROI is negative across all aspirants.

I stress "financial" rewards because for many of these pursuits there are intangible rewards that make it worth it even for the "losers". I spent most of my 20s playing in rock bands and legitimately trying, and failing, to "make it". During that time I had a day job, so I was working constantly either at the band or at my day job, and really not doing much else. I wouldn't trade that time in my life for anything, despite the fact that it cost me money both out-of-pocket and in opportunity cost, and only perhaps a few hundred people now remember my band. On the other hand, I had no family to support during that time, and I was willing to live a low-rent bohemian lifestyle.

Early-stage startups are probably the same: the camaraderie, the esprit-de-corps, and the joy of building things are the reward.

It's important to enter into these risky pursuits with your eyes open and understand that the most important rewards you receive won't be financial. If those intangibles aren't important to you, or if the base level of financial security you need is higher than that of a bohemian lifestyle, then you should look for something else.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#249
I'm glad to read this.

I have only worked in the startup environment over the last 30 years. I don't miss the big company environment and what I see from my GF (FAANG, plus one F50 brick and mortar) just reinforces that.

But a lot of people choose startup jobs because they read (or saw on TV!) a romanticized version. As described in this article the very things that make it so great aren't the things that most people want...and if you try to blend in too much of the big company thing too early the company doesn't usually make it. It it much more fun to work with people who are really into that environment so anything that steers unhappy people away is better for everyone.

I worked with a guy who had an extreme version of this: his limit was about a dozen people. And looking at his linkedIn he's since worked at some amazing major companies....always at the very beginning. It's just his thing.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#250
post #248

This reminds me of the recent post linked on HN about "why it's a bad idea to write books." One thing I think people miss is that founding a startup, or working at an early-stage startup, belongs to a class of financially irrational aspirations that includes other things like rock-star, novelist, actor, and professional athlete. For all these careers, the financial rewards are distributed according to a power law. A…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN