Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally • Hacker News Board

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#211

Post by rantwasp » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #178

I’m biased because I run a startup and have only ever worked at startups. But I’d say it basically comes down to different strokes. If you’re in it just for the money AND you have the background and interviewing skills to get a job at a FAANG then you’re better off doing that, you’ll make far more money. For me though, there’s not many salaries that don’t end in “million” that you could pay me to work at a FAANG. Not…

you’d be just fine at FANG. you are taking horror stories and thinking that is the way things happen at X. Your experience at a big company is mostly dictated by 1) your boss and 2) your team. There are good pockets in the worst places and there are really bad pockets in the best places. The exercise to how you figure this out is left yo the reader.

Regarding impact: you can have an impact at bigCo. It’s just that it’s not something that’s usually visible to the outside world (or sometimes not even internally). Hypothetically: if a change you make or a product you work on helps reduce the power usage of a datacenter or an android phone or a car by 1% you have made a gigantic impact. Even of only 1% of that 1% is your actual work. You’re not interested in impact. You’re interested in stroking your ego. That’s all good and whatever but at some point you’re gonna realize that you’re gonna die and all your “accomplishments” mean jack shit. I have way more respect for someone that works at Google for example, puts in their time of focused work (even if it’s “only” 20 hours per week), invests in themselves and also invests in their families and is an exemplary mother/father and/or invests in the community they live in than I have respect for someone who “hustles” and works 80 hours per week.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#212

Post by rahulpadalkar » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

> Say you have a 2% chance of picking a unicorn and being a member of the founding team. That 2% is honestly way too high for most people, and perhaps a bit low for others, but a good median to anchor on. $10M * 2% = $200K. And realistically you’re only going to get that this tranche of equity every 3-4 years at most, so that’s a risk-adjusted value of $50–$66k.

I didn't understand this math, 2% is the chance of it being a unicorn. 1% of 1B is 10M is the amount you might get if the startup sells for 1B. what does 2% of 10M signify?

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#213

Post by varjag » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #199

varjag wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what the company in question was trying to do, hiring the devs who are willing to do 24/7 too?

Sure, but then the lesson to take away from this is that the company in question apparently isn't offering enough to make that job worthwhile, and that's not the fault of the people turning them down. When the company phrases their rejection as "we don't think you're committed enough to do this", that's when things smell off to me. They're hiring for a specific role, they should act like it. As an analogy, if you hir…

You could be right and it could well be the case, but we don't know really. We are only aware that the GP turned them down, but it's quite possible they had the position filled.

One person wearing many hats is rather typical in small companies and early stage startups. Being asked to do extra is not something insulting per se, as long as you compensated accordingly, either with more hard money or (a lot more) equity.

It is a non-starter proposition to many, which should be respected. But it's not something borderline criminal.

> How does a company get to the point where you're talking to the CEO, they're laying out their exit strategies, and the job requirements still haven't been made clear?

Look, if we're still talking about a startup it could well be the interviewer is the CEO, the guy who brought you coffee is CFO and you're interviewing for CTO/dev/ops/support in one :)

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#214

Post by alasdair_ » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

adflux wrote: post #51

eecc wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what Wiener suggests in Uncanny Valley, when she describes the windfall when Microsoft bought the GitHub shares she had the option to buy during her time there. It wasn’t life-defining, plus she noticed that many other employees didn’t have enough savings to actually exercise.

Couldnt a bank front the cash to exercise the options? Not familiar with the matter but it seems like an easy thing to get a loan for

Most option contracts forbid the employee pledging the shares for anything, including a loan to pay taxes. Its kind of absurd.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#215

Post by zepto » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

Grimm1 wrote: post #119

rjzzleep wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my own household/wife I have a person who's worked her ass off for a hugely incompetent CEO who has a majority stake. When I say ass off I mean 12-14 hours a day even on weekends. A promise of unlimited holidays and then coercing all employees to work during government mandated holidays and now he's trying to scam her out of her less than 1% options by coercing her to write a maternity leave policy that would ma…

I’ve never had these abuses working for a startup. I feel like you have to push back against things instead of just going with it. Or choose the position better because they sound like bad jobs regardless of the type of business. That’s what I can’t help thinking when I hear that because I’ve now worked for 5 different startups and while there was some crunch time occasionally the majority by far was an 8 hour day an…

> I feel like you have to push back against things instead of just going with it.

In a bad startup you typically can’t ‘push back’ meaningfully. If the management doesn’t understand how to treat people well, people pushing back won’t educate them, and employees have to get work done to justify their presence rather than fighting battles all the time.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#216

Post by rantwasp » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

ryanSrich wrote: post #204

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow and a startup employee is different? Not a wage slave? So many more compromises in work quality and delivery get made at a startup vs FAANG. Not building a quality product. Building an MVP that fools a few early adopters to part with their money. Then sell out and cash in (not you; the founders). Ok not a wage slave, because the wage isn't worth it. To work overtime without compensation or really any hope of comp…

If you want to make the argument that working for anyone other than yourself is wage slaving I won’t fight you. The difference to me though is that you typically own (or have the right to own given enough commitment) significantly more of a startup than a FAANG. Granted, your chances of owning anything of value is low, but that’s a risk I’m willing to take over making Bezos and Zuckerberg that much richer. Knowing I’…

you’re making Bezos richer while you get rich yourself. the 2nd part is important

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#217

Post by auspex » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

neilsharma wrote: post #175

I've been an early engineer (first 3) at a startup. I didn't stick around long enough to vest for reasons, but in hindsight, it wouldn't have been worth it financially even if I had. They eventually got acquired by a big brand name Silicon Valley company after 4-5 years for an undisclosed amount. My 0.4% plus salary wouldn't even break $200k/year in total unless the company sold for a fair amount above $100M. Later i…

At the end of the day it is a lot harder to come up with an idea, find market traction, convince people to invest in you than it is to become the third employee.

Additionally, a 100M exit isn't always a win. It depends on how much money was invested / spent to get there as well.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#218

Post by atoav » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

rcruzeiro wrote: post #125

rjzzleep wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my own household/wife I have a person who's worked her ass off for a hugely incompetent CEO who has a majority stake. When I say ass off I mean 12-14 hours a day even on weekends. A promise of unlimited holidays and then coercing all employees to work during government mandated holidays and now he's trying to scam her out of her less than 1% options by coercing her to write a maternity leave policy that would ma…

It's funny how often I got rejected after saying that I am not 24/7 available and that I believe that, if someone needs to have this kind of availability, it means that something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed. The words they used in the rejections were always something like: "we feel like you are not willing to put enough skin in the game" or "everyone else sees the opportunity here is is willin…

> if someone needs to have this kind of availability, it means that something in the company is not working and needs to be fixed.

The crazy thing is, they think they can just throw manhours at bad planning and somehow make it work.

You can literally plan well, have a good life and still come out ahead of these chaotic organizations that make everybody run in circles out of pure panic.

I have seen this so often in film projects: people believe by exploiting themselves, their crew and their cast they somehow "extract" more value and magically make it work. And that one one the point, relexad, but well-planned project will always achieve better results. Because oh wonder: crews and casts that are not overworked and that use their maximum potential where it matters instead of spreading it out over the whole project will always produce better results.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#219

Post by hinkley » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

Many of the things I think I would enjoy about working for a startup are actually the qualities I enjoy about working on a small team. Not at startups retain the small team mentality for long. Not all small teams are at startups.

Plenty of large companies build small teams for new ideas but they too have the problem of often not staying small for long. Empire building is a hell of a drug. But you can often see this coming and I’ve known a couple people who were very good at moving horizontally within a company every few years to avoid most of these sorts of problems.

Re: Working at a startup is overrated, both financially and emotionally

#220

Post by gorbachev » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

nt2h9uh238h wrote: post #151

Startups are the most efficient organisations in the economy. Because you have to get shit done and can't fuck around. A lot of people love to fuck around and do "fake work". Only output and impact matter. Hard work is "hard", and at startups you can't hide "not working". It sounds pedantic but that's quite the reality, a lot of people just don't know what "work" feels like, and don't want to do it.

I guess you haven't worked at a dysfunctional startup.

Dude...there are all kinds of startups, as there are all kinds of other types of companies. Good and bad. With incompetent or competent bosses.

There are plenty of people who fuck around at startups. Plenty.