Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor • Hacker News Board

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#161

Post by DistressedDrone » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

jonnylynchy wrote: post #47

I agree that there are rich people who know little about what it's like to be poor or even middle class. But not all rich people were always rich. I grew up poor, and was poor as a young adult. After working 2 jobs, going to school and trying to keep my family together on next to nothing, I was able to climb my way up and get to "middle class". Despite being poor for a while, my kids were happy and they didn't know a…

The thing is, it's all luck.

Policies are made with the idea that someone like you must have somehow "earned" it, and you may believe it yourself, but no one chooses to be poor. You were lucky enough to get a good job, lucky enough to be able to work so much without burning out, lucky to be born smart, or a man, or white. It all adds up and it's all luck. You always made the most optimal choice you thought possible, as anyone would.

Yet the pervasive idea that one can "earn it" and become rich through sheer willpower has the unfortunate implication that those who are "still" poor must somehow deserve it. If some can grit their teeth through their misfortune and achieve upward social mobility, why can't they all? This is of course absurd of the face of it because your gain was someone else's loss, we can't all be "rich" as it is inherently relative. But also because any given poor person generally has the goal if not the priority of becoming less poor. Having grown up poor, no one wants to believe it's a permanent state of affairs.

Generally speaking, everyone works hard and no one wants to be poor. Yet modern capitalism (even our Canadian version) is largely engineered to punish the poor for being so, even though in the end, it's all luck.

Edit: Here's an interesting paper on the topic of misattribution of success: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/7/eaau1156.full

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#162

Post by stephc_int13 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

TacticalCoder wrote: post #140

I have both my father and my uncle who became dirt poor just by making terribly poor life choices so I've got a very different take on this. They had good jobs but couldn't help screwing it up by: gambling, buying sportcars, overall trying to bite more than they could swallow (houses too big, with monthly mortgage too expensive), etc. In both cases it ended up with foreclosures / lawyers etc. My brother and I are now…

Most addictions are seen as "poor choices" at face value, but you have to understand that unhappiness is the trigger.

They found temporary solace with those poor choices.

This is not rational, but the instinctive part of our brain is taking control when we're under threat (unhappiness is a signal)

Food addiction is very common in the US, people are not obese because of a lack of exercise or knowledge about the consequences of eating too much, and yet you'll find that happier (usually strongly related to wealth and status) people are less prone to addictions...

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#163

Post by baq » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #84

LocalPCGuy wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at the psychology of decision making when poor and struggling? It might open your eyes as to why people don't make the optimal choices (financially or others). And a lot of people literally do not know any better. They've never had someone teach them how to manage money and potentially had bad role models growing up. So its easy for you to say, with the knowledge it seems like you have, this is what y…

> Have you looked at the psychology of decision making when poor and struggling? It might open your eyes as to why people don't make the optimal choices (financially or others). Where does "psychology of decision making when poor and struggling" stop and personal responsibility begin? Can every suboptimal decision be excused because of "psychology of decision making when poor and struggling"?

You’ve got some reading up to do on behavioral economics. Humans (real ones, not model economic actors) can’t and don’t make optimal decisions except in very special circumstances.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#164

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #131

bachmeier wrote: post #123

There are a couple things to understand about being poor. It's not about lack of money (though obviously having lots of money means you're not poor). It's about insecurity. I grew up in farm country in the 1980s. Nobody had money, but I didn't feel poor. When I moved to other parts of the country, that's when I encountered poor people. They had to worry about crime, schools for their kids, and being homeless. When yo…

> The other thing is that there's a saying along the lines of getting wealthy being mostly the same for everyone What does this mean?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina_principle

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#165

Post by readams » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #65

nanis wrote: post #36

Wealth is a stock measure, income is flow. You accumulate wealth out of what you can set aside out of the flow. Some of us immigrants do not come to this country with an existing stock of wealth either back home or here. We are also not in the favored group of immigrants. We have human capital which we are trying to convert to financial capital for the next generation. Then, when we sort of "make it" here, people who…

I think this is an excellent comment. What makes me very sad is that during the past 14 months the divide between those who own assets and those who don't has reached gargantuan proportions. I mean, in my raging inferno of a housing market, over the past couple of years home prices have easily doubled. So a 400k house from 2018 now sells for 800k. Yes, if I want to move to another house in my area I'll pay similarly…

Except you have to pay capital gains tax when you move after 250k or 500k for married. So it's not a wash. Especially if you're talking about more expensive markets.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#166

Post by ryanianian » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #45

FriedrichN wrote: post #3

A more distant but very wealthy family member once said that people wouldn't be so poor if they just saved up money. That perfectly illustrated the difficulty rich people have understanding poor people to me. I was really young, but that really stuck with me.

The worst part is that your wealthy family member is right. It is well illustrated by a quote from Terry Pratchett > The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. > Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a se…

“We can’t afford cheap things”

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#167

Post by mentalpiracy » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #80

christophilus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a babysitter recently charge us $21 for 3 hours. It blew my mind. I insisted that we paid her $40, which still seemed insane. Someone earning $7/hr makes $280/week. I can’t imagine trying to get by on that even with no dependents.

Isn't the thinking that these jobs are supposed to be for teenagers, which has their income supplemented by their parents?

Why should a working persons age or living arrangement cause a devaluation of the work they are doing?

Yes the instinct is to pay teenagers less because we generally cannot fathom them capable or experienced enough to do “real” work. But does this set the stage for the devaluation of entire classes of work because they’re seen as “for teens?”

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#168

Post by bradleyjg » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #144

e40 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about?

Presumably restrictive zoning policies that make it incredibly difficult to build the amount of additional housing that is needed in many areas.

That, but also the entire GSEs edifice, the Fed’s MBS purchases, and lots more.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#169

Post by refurb » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

pattusk wrote: post #10

austincheney wrote: post #4

Poor Americans often don't understand what it's like to be poor. Spending extended time in a severely damaged third world country absent all security opens all kinds of perspectives.

Having lived in the third world, I would say that the American poors are probably the closest you're going to get to "third world poor" anywhere in the developed world. Life expectancy, crime rates, housing quality and disease in poor American communities are on level incomparable to any other developed country I can think of.

This is a pretty ridiculous statement as someone that has lived in multiple countries including the US.

I would put forth the First Nations in Canada where many reservations yet have a source of clean drinking water despite gov’ts promises for the last couple of decades to help them with it.

And to compare being poor in the US with the Third World is also shows a lack of knowledge. When you’ve lived in places where the govt will do nothing for you and the only source of relief is the charity of neighbors or NGOs you’d learn to appreciate what America offers.

Re: Rich people do have trouble understanding what it's like to be poor

#170

Post by baq » Sat, May 22, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #149

UncleMeat wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just don't have kids" is, IMO, one of the most incredibly insensitive approaches to this problem. It reminds me of all the people telling gay people to "just don't have a relationship". Having an entire class of people who work hard but are too poor to raise children is a failure of society - not a failure of financial planning.

No. Not raising kids in poverty is a matter of social responsibility. I would also argue that most people don’t want kids until they have a certain level of financial security. . That’s why family planning was so successful in decreasing birth rates.

So what do you recommend to people who are in a poverty cycle but want to feel they’re free humans, not economic slaves?