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Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

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Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

I don't think the argument is that it's some separate sphere entirely disconnected from normal human interaction. It's like saying "the point of a movie night is to hang out and enjoy a movie together". If me and my friends were halfway through a movie, and I stood up and staged a loud political protest against something one of the characters said, my friends would be pretty rightfully unhappy with me.

Oh? What are the kinds of things in a movie that might make you do that?

Let's suppose you're black and go over to a white friend's house for movie night. He puts on something super racist (say, Birth of a Nation, or a collection of blackface routines). You object, but all of his guests mock you for being "too sensitive" and "too political". You say, "I'm not sitting here for this," and leave. Were they rightfully unhappy with you?

I would say no, that your friends are assholes. That you aren't obliged to silently endorse your own oppression.

And I think it's the same thing at work. Would I want endless off-topic discussion at work? No. But some of what people denigrate as "too political" is entirely material to the workplace. Indeed, the Basecamp mess shows clearly that "no politics" rules are about suppressing discussion of things that are relevant, and are necessary because they are relevant.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both your examples the person laboring is forced to labor for one specific lord/owner. In our economy, you can go work for anyone, or for yourself, or to some degree even not work at all and collect various social benefits. Comparing programmers in 2021 to medieval serfs or ancient debt-slaves is literally absurd. Programmers don't even really need any substantial capital to do their own thing. You can start a bus…

Wasn't there a big scandal some years ago about the big tech players making deals under the table about wages and not poaching each other's talent? At some point, when there is too much to lose, big companies are going to start collaborating on things that are not beneficial to the worker. At that point, you might say that you have total freedom in your choice of where to go to work, but you are also limited by the '…

Of course. I didn't mean to literally say that working as a programmer is like being a serf, just that the arguments for lopsided employment relationships are the same millenia old agreements that justified debt slavery and serfdom.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

If I work somewhere, I am the tool that the founder uses to have wrought forth their vision. I accept that and do what must be done. Therefore, at the same time, if I create a company, it is mine to do with as I please, to command forth to fulfill my vision. I don't really understand the purpose of bringing "the whole person" if it doesn't matter to the work being done. It can not only be useless but actively harmful…

This emperor-or-minion dichotomy is exactly what I'm objecting to. It's both morally repugnant and entirely false.

Having started a few companies, I can promise you that it is not yours "to do with as I please, to command forth to fulfill my vision". What you'll actually be doing is desperately seeking to satisfy customers and pacify investors while working hard to keep good staff. Once you get a good business going, you'll have more of a margin to indulge any tastes you have for being a tinpot dictator. But that's always a personal indulgence that in the long term detracts from building the business. Look at WeWork as an example: that guy was absolutely in the "do with as I please, to command forth to fulfill my vision" mold. And how many billions has he lost?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your labour and are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the lord for the privilege to work this land" "Your labour and skills are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the owner to pay back your debt and earn your freedom" You can use that logic to justify any oppression as long as you frame it in the langua…

> It's not a choice. You have a (metaphorical) pistol to your head to engage with the system as it is, die, or be killed. This is ridiculous. In the US people constantly quit to start small businesses, work for other businesses, or just not work at all. There is zero threat of violence if you choose not to work. Additionally, there is no concept of debt slavery at all outside of the military (which is probably the mo…

I don't think you understood what I meant, I probably wasn't clear.

There is no threat of violence if you choose not to work. The violence is if you try to subsist to your means without engaging with the economic system. So you are forced to engage in the economic system as it is.

As for debt slavery, I'm simply saying that the arguments used to justified exploitative labour relations are exactly the same as were used to justify debt slavery.

If you grow cucumbers in your garden, your first need to buy the land for the garden, which was ultimately stolen from someone else. But growing a cucumber in your garden is not private property in absentia, it's private property in present use.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#815
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think the answer is a return to 20th century "no politics at work" Why not?

Because "no politics at work" isn't neutral, it means supporting the status quo by way of defining what counts as "politics". Is calling someone by their preferred pronouns, or wearing a mask during the pandemic politics?

It is neutral by definition. And it is also a very good approach as it automatically filters out wokes from the potential candidate pool (as we've seen in Basecamp's example it also works wonders on your current workforce).

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what it's like. I've not seen it put like this before, but anxiety inducing is just right, and yes, it is abusive. Take the letter people, for example. They will ridicule people for not understanding the difference between G and Q, for example. Phrases like "if you don't know what X means, you must live under a rock" are common. Then you have the pronoun people who tell us anyone can choose any set of…

Seriously? You know so many trans, agender, etc folks that have adopted different pronouns than what they had at birth that YOU are overwhelmed and are now the victim in some way? And the people who have made choices about identity are inventing a secret language like children? Reflect a little bit on your outlook before you join a discussion, for goodness sake.

Great way to shutdown an argument without contributing anything. Shame someone for not thinking like you do.

I feel like I am the victim if I'm the person considered to be "in the wrong" because I won't use this new language other people are creating and recreating all the time. I didn't have to worry about compelled speech like that 10 years ago.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anxiety is a normal emotion. If it's pervasive it can certainly be a problem, but I'll also point out that anxiety inducing situations can have nothing to do with politics, of course. People who approach others like this are putting themselves out there. They are just as at risk, if not more, as you would be by expressing your own responses in a non threatening way. If you don't know how to do that, I suggest you lea…

This is absolutely ridiculous. Please, people, do NOT be honest about your conservative or non-woke political positions in this industry. You will absolutely be punished for them by your peers. It is not in any situation ever worth it. Clock in, clock out, take the check, and always always always keep interviewing constantly because they will have no issues firing you arbitrarily. Work at a large enough company and t…

Just don’t circulate a poorly written manifesto and you’ll be fine.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Please, people, do NOT be honest about your conservative or non-woke political positions in this industry. You will absolutely be punished for them by your peers. It is not in any situation ever worth it. Clock in, clock out, take the check, and always always always keep interviewing constantly because they will have no issues firing you arbitrarily. Work at a large enough company and t…

Just don’t circulate a poorly written manifesto and you’ll be fine.

Or write a critically acclaimed work of fiction 5 years ago.

Please update your cancel culture example du jour.

Edit: Reference was to Antonio Garcia Martinez.

Edit 2: In case it wasn't clear, the post I'm responding to is referring to James Damore, an autistic man who was manipulated into believing people wanted to have an honest, good faith discussion about the issues of gender and sex and hiring at Google. He got baited by "bring your whole self to work". Don't get baited.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#819
post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be silly without evidence. The threshold for silliness would become a lot lower if there were a history of systemic problems and extensive evidence of similar scenarios in the present.

“Extensive evidence of similar scenarios”? So if in another company a man discriminated against a woman, it increases the probability that the same thing is happening to the OP? That sounds quite sexist actually. You’re basically stereotyping men based on a few bad actors.

> So if in another company a man discriminated against a woman, it increases the probability that the same thing is happening to the OP?

This is clearly not what anyone here is saying you should really take a moment to reevaluate your position. We're not talking about one man in one company but a historical and systemic suppression.

Additionally, you'll notice that the person you are responding to does not act or treat their colleagues differently, only that they consider where these noticed actions come from.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? You know so many trans, agender, etc folks that have adopted different pronouns than what they had at birth that YOU are overwhelmed and are now the victim in some way? And the people who have made choices about identity are inventing a secret language like children? Reflect a little bit on your outlook before you join a discussion, for goodness sake.

Great way to shutdown an argument without contributing anything. Shame someone for not thinking like you do. I feel like I am the victim if I'm the person considered to be "in the wrong" because I won't use this new language other people are creating and recreating all the time. I didn't have to worry about compelled speech like that 10 years ago.

> I didn't have to worry about compelled speech like that 10 years ago.

Imagine that- society has changed in 10 years. I'm sorry you can't be arsed

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