Live data from Hacker News

Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

741–750 of 1001 posts

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#741
post #165

> according to a new Harris poll commissioned by Paradigm, a diversity consultancy, more than two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work I just plain do not believe this poll.

Yeah, I hold what I believe is the popular (and most correct) opinions and there is no way I'd want to have a conversation about any of that with my coworkers.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are all kinds of radical opinions, in USA there are two quite clearly established camps of mainstream opinion, and it does seem reasonable that if roughly half of the country (or your state) vote for one candidate and roughly half for the other, then it should imply that the opinions of both of these camps are roughly equally valid from the perspective of the society. One gets a bit more votes and gets to…

>if roughly half of the country (or your state) vote for one candidate and roughly half for the other, then it should imply that the opinions of both of these camps are roughly equally valid from the perspective of the society. Or, it implies that roughly half of society is wrong . More than one genocidal dictator was originally elected by popular vote. We do not need to take as a premise that equal support implies e…

[flagged]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#743
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

Oof. There isn't room to just go to work... to work? I want to go to the office and interact with people who are the best at what they do, I want my company to hire those people, and I expect them to hold me to equal standards. When the office was explicitly segregated, men vs women, black vs white, whatever,sure,they're could have been room for politics to change that in the workplace. It doesn't seem the same now.…

I guess the question I have is, what about political issues that are inherently part of the work you’re doing?

Is it reasonable to talk about the politics of building a widget that will have an effect on people?

I work in marketing and end up having this type of political discussion fairly frequently with bosses and colleagues. How are we tracking folks? What data are we collecting? What does the law say we can do? What’s our risk tolerance for breaking the law? These are all inherently political things that should be addressed and thought about. Burying our heads in the sand isn’t productive.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, we are selling our labour. But the idea that that means that we are selling our _time_ is a recent development in human history. Most societies in the past would have a hard time even understanding the idea that one's time could belong to your employer, es explained by David Graeber in "bullshit jobs"

It seems to me that past societies would have a very good understanding about the idea that one's time could belong to your employer as many of them were (and some had) full-time live-in servants, or season-long farm labor contracts for landless laborers, or serfdom/rent situations with a duty to work x days/season to cultivate the landlord's land instead of theirs, or indentured servitude or even slavery, or any oth…

This is what Graeber writes:

"Historically, human work patterns have taken the form of intense bursts of energy followed by rest. Farming, for instance, is generally an all-hands-on-deck mobilization around planting and harvest, with the off-seasons occupied by minor projects. Large projects such as building a house or preparing for a feast tend to take the same form. This is typical of how human beings have always worked. There is no reason to believe that acting otherwise would result in greater efficiency or productivity. Often it has precisely the opposite effect.

One reason that work was historically irregular is because it was largely unsupervised. This is true of medieval feudalism and of most labor arrangements until relatively recent times, even if the relationship between worker and boss was strikingly unequal. If those at the bottom produced what was required of them, those at the top couldn’t be bothered to know how the time was spent."

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your labour and are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the lord for the privilege to work this land" "Your labour and skills are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the owner to pay back your debt and earn your freedom" You can use that logic to justify any oppression as long as you frame it in the langua…

> It's not a choice. You have a (metaphorical) pistol to your head to engage with the system as it is, die, or be killed. This is ridiculous. In the US people constantly quit to start small businesses, work for other businesses, or just not work at all. There is zero threat of violence if you choose not to work. Additionally, there is no concept of debt slavery at all outside of the military (which is probably the mo…

>In the US people constantly quit to start small businesses, work for other businesses, or just not work at all. There is zero threat of violence if you choose not to work.

SOME people. Median savings are ~$4k, realistically the average person needs access to credit (which they may not have), a strong support network, or some other way of surviving longer than 2 months without work.

And whether or not you do have the wealth or support network needed to choose not to work is determined mostly by who your parents are. This isn't a fair system.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#746

I have no tolerance for politics at work. As far as woke at work goes, not too long ago someone in my office commented on slack "I don't approve of unnecessarily gendered emoji" - I can't even begin to imagine what sort of mind produces such thoughts. First world problems? No idea.

I can imagine what sort of mind produces such thoughts: an unoccupied one.

Lots of people are going to work just to get out of the house and doing make-work. They aren't invested in their work. It isn't what they want to do. The work isn't real with real outcomes and real responsibility. It's not hard.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it's a giant mistake to see a workplace as a place where the entrepreneur is a tiny god-king. It isn't about being a god king, its about people being capable of collectively doing a task without saddling the execution of that task with all of their personal, political and emotional baggage. >If people want to play-act as robots, I won't deny them their kink. But that's not what interests me about work, and i…

How about when the grievance has to do with work itself? Something like James Damore. Or the inverse, someone bringing up a mysogynistic culture company-wide? What if the company implicitly looks down upon people with left/right leanings, depending on whether it's in Alabama or California? I agree with the general sentiment that going to the office, collecting your paycheck and going home is the smoothest ride for ev…

Well, for many NOT being a sexist in a work setting is a common sense practice. Business owners of this stance will enforce it mercilessly and will still not think of themselves as having a certain political inclination.

I suppose this circles back to the loose definition of "common decency".

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#748
post #85

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

Unfortunately, in the never-ending struggle to force employees to conform to some platonic ideal of efficient production, companies have spent a lot of time and energy - not just in their own policy, but also in lobbying to the government and the public at large - trying to make work the center of the average American's life. Think of all the things you have to pass by your boss before making decisions about your own…

>where work ends when it ends

In the last year alone, despite the pandemic, Germans have worked 1.67 billion extra hours. More than half of them unpaid.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I work somewhere, I am the tool that the founder uses to have wrought forth their vision. I accept that and do what must be done. Therefore, at the same time, if I create a company, it is mine to do with as I please, to command forth to fulfill my vision. I don't really understand the purpose of bringing "the whole person" if it doesn't matter to the work being done. It can not only be useless but actively harmful…

"Do as you please" isn't really true. You'll have local zoning laws to follow, taxes to pay, minimum wages to respect, health codes, fire safety codes and on and on. So already you're at the behest of regulations. Then, you're not employing tools or widgets. Tools are inanimate objects created by humans. Humans are thinking beings that have emotions. It's a fantasy to think you can abstract it away just because you p…

But it is fairly realistic to expect them to do their work without making political statements or refusing to work with others due to their political beliefs.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#750
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who huffily decry "politics" also tend to have political beliefs which they feel are apolitical. Examining and unpacking those beliefs is "political," however, so that the net result is "I just don't want my politics questioned or examined, even when it affects other people."

Believe it or not there are plenty of people who live their lifes outside of politics. They don't vote, they don't have any favorites in the political arena Politics is divisive and agressive. Some people are put off by the easy narratives of good vs bad Only dictatorships have historically wanted to permeate every aspect of life with politics. The USSR used to say "everything is politics". There are plenty of exampl…

Living "outside of politics" means having no self-preservation instinct. Politicians are like gangsters constantly plotting against you, trying to take your money from you, or force you to do things you don't want to do. They can make your life real Hell on Earth. The only chance of stopping them is by protesting loudly and by voting.
Post reply on HN