Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#721

Post by paisawalla » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:38 AM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #345

smegger001 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the one that gets me is adding race to emoji. they all used to be 'Simpsons yellow', a skin tone not found in any ethnic or racial group, and as such not representing or excluding any group but now we have black white and other various skin tones for our happy-faces. WHY? Does black happy face mean something different than white happy face isn't happiness universal? why bring race into something that was simply meant…

I don’t think everyone interpreted “Simpsons yellow” as race-less. Certainly the show didn’t - On the show, Homer identifies as a white male IIRC, and some characters (like Apu) are not yellow. You have to pick some skin tone for the default; just floating features would be off putting. Believing that the pan-white default of “simpsons yellow” is raceless because you feel represented in it excludes that others might…

I say this as a non-white person who ostensibly should feel better represented by these emojis: a person who feels anxiety or exclusion when they see a yellow "thumbs up" is someone who has a low grade mental illness in need of address.

Well-meaning white people have been duped by a vocal minority of non-whites, who themselves were duped by cynical, washed out 60s radicals with bad ideas who failed to achieve anything in their time. You have been encouraged to treat non-whites like child emperors in your midst, whose every whim and dictate can only lead the way to racial harmony and absolution of your inherited sins. This is madness, and it's embarrassing for me and other right-thinking people to witness.

>Believing that the pan-white default of “simpsons yellow” is raceless because you feel represented in it excludes that others might not feel represented in it.

What race is Milhouse, with his blue hair?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#722

Post by gnopgnip » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:40 AM UTC

shock-value wrote: post #142

stephc_int13 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow.

It literally isn’t. The phrase “protected class” has a specific legal definition in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_State...

It is in several states including CA and NY, where most tech firms are located.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#723

Post by tachyonbeam » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #444

planet-and-halo wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the research showing some tiny percentage of Twitter users, like 3%-4%, are responsible for the vast majority of flamewars. The asymmetry of the internet gives these people the ability to crowd reasonable people out of the commons.

I think another problem is that communicating by text in twitter posts. Its very hard to tell how serious someone is being. No facial expressions, mannerisms, or hand movements to guide. Like they could be making up the most absurd reactions, typing up a storm, and people will take them seriously more often than not.

Twitter is worse than other platforms because the format is really contrived. The 280 character limit doesn't give people space to write a nuanced, fair, well thought out response to things.

Also, if you contrast twitter and reddit, I would say that on reddit, everyone is kind of on the same footing more or less. Anyone can post a thread and if the content is interesting, it can rise to the top, then every response in that thread also has an equal chance to have visibility. The design of twitter is made so that masses of people follow some small number of "influencers", and these people have an outsized voice. There is no upvote or downvote, it seems to be largely based on how many followers you have.

The fact that there's no specific topical discussion groups I think also really amplifies the toxicity of the platform, because twitter can suck a bunch of people who have nothing to do with the discussion into the flamewar, as a way to increase "engagement". On a platform like HN, you have discussions about programming, and they're split into threads which people can choose to read or not. Reddit is split into subreddits on a variety of topics. It doesn't actively try to rope random people into some bullshit drama they have nothing to do with.

And uh, fun fact: twitter is not profitable, more than 15 years after they were founded, 8 years after their IPO. The stock has basically gone nowhere. It's a wonder they're still here, despite their lack of innovation and lack of business sense. IMO, the world would be better without this platform, but uh, I guess once your tech company gets past a certain size, it can never go bankrupt?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#724

Post by tachyonbeam » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

nverno wrote: post #365

> "according to a new Harris poll commissioned by Paradigm, a diversity consultancy, more than two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work" Of course it does, they are a diversity consultancy (whatever the heck that is)

In other news, Marlboro has found, through rigorous scientific study, that cigarettes do not increase the risk of cancer. In fact, they may help reduce the risk of developing cancer by reducing workplace stress.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#725

Post by 7952 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #347

hypertexthero wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “The proximity of his workplace and his home is convenient, but there is a serious political motivation underlying it, too. When Steidl was a teen-ager, he spent several weeks volunteering at Auschwitz, clearing paths for visitors and sleeping in a former barracks. His father had served in the German Army, and Steidl participated in a program that had been established, he said, to show young Germans “what the paren…

People don't spontaneously decide that conducting murder in a concentration camp is a morally acceptable career path. The Nazis succeeded in the first place because they injected their politics into every aspect of life. Politics-free spaces create additional friction that impedes the rise of radical ideology.

A lot of Nazi's really did believe that they were in the right. That Jew's really were an inhuman invader presenting an existential threat.

Of course that is an incredibly fragile idea to hold. There needed to be an institutional structure that tied those views to everyday practical and emotional needs. You hold those views because your power, prestige, money and family safety depended on holding those views. You suck up to you Nazi boss, whos suck's up to his boss in turn, all the way up to Hitler. And weirdly this is how a lot of companies act. Deep down everyone knows that the corporation is a lie. But slowly and surely your words turn into a stream of carefully crafted shibboleth's and cultural references. And you get a promotion and a new car. Your family is safe and your place in the pecking order confirmed. And every few years a new set of words enter the vocabulary that clear out a few oldies and cycle the structure.

The problem here is not politics per-se but top-down command structures that allow viewpoints to be weaponized for career promotion.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#726

Post by unishark » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #220

eric4smith wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Most businesses are started with neither. But with the sweat off the back of the founders. When will we acknowledge that one of the most noble pursuits in human history is to provide paid employment for your fellow man??

When will we stop fetishizing and lionizing "job creation"? The ideal business would employ zero people, have zero expenses, and make a 100% profit margin. From a purely business perspective, every job created is an inefficiency. No one sets out to create jobs when they start a business. They set out to make money and create products or services of value - in that order. Employing people is an unfortunate side-effect…

Your idea of business and what entrepreneurs want is simplistic. You must know it will be easy to find people who don't fit blanket statements like this.

Even if you think this is the natural inclination of the public corporation, not all companies have to go public and not all investors in public companies care about nothing the company does besides make profit. It's a world of humans we operate in, not some kind of logical optimal point.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#727

Post by avianlyric » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

puszczyk wrote: post #719

furyofantares wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I perceive the cartoon yellow emojis to be white, an alternative interpretation never occurred to me at all. The first time a black coworker gave a black thumbs-up reaction on slack, I noticed I didn't want to +1 it. I didn't identify with it, it didn't feel like it was coming from me. This was a strong reaction and totally unexpected, and it was a "holy shit" moment as well, because I suddenly imagined how excluded…

> The first time a black coworker gave a black thumbs-up reaction on slack, I noticed I didn't want to +1 it. I didn't identify with it, it didn't feel like it was coming from me. Why wouldn’t you identify with a +1 from a black (or other race/ethnicity) colleague? The question is a bit aggressive, but if possible don’t consider it like that — I live in an (unfortunately rather conservative) part of the EU and TBH I’…

Don’t think GP is having an issue with a +1 from a black coworker, rather that the coworker had reacted in slack using a black thumbs up.

So GP didn’t want to click the black thumbs up to react using the same emoji, because GP didn’t think that a black thumbs up represented him, and would rather react with a yellow or white thumbs up.

GP is then just saying that non-white coworkers probably feel the same about the yellow thumbs up emoji.

Ultimately using emoji is about expressing oneself, and skin colour is a big part of peoples identity (for better or worse). So it makes sense that they want their expressions using emoji to represent their identity.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#728

Post by aksss » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

0xy wrote: post #670

aksss wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political beliefs are not a protected class federally but some states and DC may offer protections. I think a majority of states do not, however.

100% of the companies in the OP are headquartered in a state that does, however. Including the vast majority of their employees. California has strict protections, including protection from retaliation.

Yes, the GP was speaking about the US at large offering those protections, which it does not.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#729

Post by avianlyric » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:53 AM UTC

slashdev wrote: post #243

smegger001 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the one that gets me is adding race to emoji. they all used to be 'Simpsons yellow', a skin tone not found in any ethnic or racial group, and as such not representing or excluding any group but now we have black white and other various skin tones for our happy-faces. WHY? Does black happy face mean something different than white happy face isn't happiness universal? why bring race into something that was simply meant…

Fully agree. It seems so stupid. Why do people care about what color the emoji is? Don't they have real problems?

People want their written expressions to match their personal identities. Is that really too much to ask for?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#730

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

secondcoming wrote: post #661

OpieCunningham wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe their reputations weren’t all that impressive to begin with. In any case, “allowing” is doing some heavy lifting there. No one is allowing anything. This is just how a society with mostly free expression works. Are people not supposed to express their dissatisfaction with other people? If I don’t like something, and enough other people don’t like it, such that an organization responds in a way to appease us, sh…

> If I don’t like something, and enough other people don’t like it, such that an organization responds in a way to appease us, should there be a law to prevent that? Like when certain people didn't like other people sitting at the front of buses?

[deleted]