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The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

harmful.cat-v.org

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Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these are ethical problems if you accept the premise that the author of a work is entitled to be remunerated for the production of said work, and can contract (exclusively, for a period of time) with a publisher for the distribution of said work. Put another way: you may (or may not) be old enough to remember when an American paperback company, Ace books, produced and sold paperback copies of Tolkien's "Lord…

>if you accept the premise that the author of a work is entitled to be remunerated for the production of said work Then please elaborate why we should accept said premise. You just state it like it's an universal law of the universe. It isn't. No artisan (or actually, no one at all) is entitled to a successful business modell. And by the way, the "problem" aren't the people who are unwilling to pay for anything (whic…

> [The problem is] the people expecting to make money with art. It's cool if you can. If you can't, then you're not entitled to laws or monopolies that protect your failed business modell.

Agreed that there's no entitlement to laws or monopolies. And I grant you that some ultra-libertarians oppose any restriction on their personal economic freedom, citing moral reasons.

But society sometimes decides, for pragmatic reasons, that it's a sensible bet to grant limited-term monopolies [1], in the hope that over the long term everyone will benefit. We see that in the Writings and Discoveries Clause, article I, section 8, clause 8 of the U.S. Constitution.[2]

EDIT in response to comments: Just what monopolies to grant, and for how long, is of course the $64K question. It's been my observation that this is one of those issues where, for many people, where you stand depends on where you sit (or is it the other way around?)

[1] Technically, "monopoly" is a misnomer when applied IP rights in the general case. In economics, the term refers to someone having a lock on access to goods or services for which there's no 'viable' substitute. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly.

[2] http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#section8

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#32
post #9
post #3

A "right to sue" could be considered property if you squinted hard enough, but of course when people talk about intellectual property they're talking about "UNIX" or Windows or the Mac OS look and feel, not the legal mechanisms themselves.

Yes, juridically, the word "property" in "intellectual property" actually does refer to the rights , not to the immaterial entities governed by those rights. "Intellectual property rights" is just tautological.

Thank you, it always seemed to me that it would make sense if it was supposed to be that way, but I didn't realize that that was the actual law.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not quite the argument. If I compose a poem or a play, and contract with a publisher to publish said poem and pay me a portion of the proceeds (or contract with a theater company to perform the play, and similarly pay me a portion of the proceeds), and some third party takes the poem/play and publishes/performs it without paying me, I have, in fact, been deprived of something, i.e., income. And, if my read…

>And, if my reading of history is not mistaken It is. Copyright is and always was designed for distributors, not authors. It's nothing more than a myth - or rather, industry propaganda - that copyright was invented by authors. Here's a nice round-up of the entire history of copyright: http://questioncopyright.org/promise

Even the forced slant in that "round-up" doesn't really serve to justify the conclusion in its last sentence. There is also no coherent argument that a dubious origin necessarily implies the lack of useful premise.

The Internet and personal computing technology indeed add "roll-your-own" options to publishing and completing a work that did not exist beforehand. But, at this point, they certainly have not replaced the need for the (sometimes creative) work done to support the work of authors. Things like: editing, typesetting, music production, video post-processing etc.

What happens when the publishing model is dead? Look at poetry. Poets still write, and some of it is decent. However, big publishers won't touch a poetry book that isn't a classic or a guaranteed sale anthology. Smaller imprints will usually only bother if the book has won a prize. In a number of cases authors pay a reading fee to enter contests, and the fee pays for the publishing of the book in a near break even scenario. In the case where poems are published on the internet, there's a small but arguable respectable audience, however there's no money changing hands whatsoever. Poets have second jobs, I know some who just gave up, who went into finance and law. I'll grant that lack of market is more of an issue as copying in this case, but publishers can help make markets. It should be easy to see how the effects are related. That is to say:

What's the difference between a bitcoin and a poem? You can buy food with a bitcoin.

Not everyone wants to be a sustenance farmer for a living.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#34
post #28

The quote by John Perry Barlow: "Royalties are not how most writers or musicians make their living. Musicians by and large make a living with a relationship with an audience that is economically harnessed through performance and ticket sales." leaves a lot to be desired. OK, so how do writers make their living? By giving live readings? I think not.

> OK, so how do writers make their living? The glib answer is "most don't", and indeed you will find a lot of writers who have other jobs. Journalists are writers, and the relationship there is fairly clear. PR and marketing materials need writing too. In short, you make your living by a company renting or commissioning your talents. Musicians had only one other option before recorded music - performing - and even th…

It's a basic right, if you spend a year writing a book, you are the one who have the rights to sell it and thus make money from your work. Same with software, a GPL license would be worthless without copyright.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#35

The quote by John Perry Barlow: "Royalties are not how most writers or musicians make their living. Musicians by and large make a living with a relationship with an audience that is economically harnessed through performance and ticket sales." leaves a lot to be desired. OK, so how do writers make their living? By giving live readings? I think not.

The way I earn a living is the same way most musicians earn a living: By working for hire or teaching (consulting).

There are about 10,000 books that make any measurable money at all, at any given time, and only a small fraction of those earn the authors enough to live on. Even famous authors of widely read books often have a "day job."

Books I have co-authored are "pirated," mainly in markets where wages are lower than would support a local edition at local pricing. My publisher does not use DRM on e-books, and e-books still rapidly outpaced paper books.

If you do the thought experiment, lack of copyright protection or a significantly shorter term of copyright, or some other variant, like a publishers' agreement not to trespass on other publishers' author relationships for some term, would not change my direct income from book writing very much.

Publishing would adapt: Books might be serialized so that subscribers get first access on a continuing basis. Or frequent editions (which you might see anyway, with e-books) might become the norm.

Apart from the handful of authors of "blockbusters" the book publishing economy would not change that much. We have made, and are protecting at great expense a novel result: A small number of authors, musicians, motion-picture makers, etc. can make big money through mass-reproduction of their works.

Is that an advancement of civilization worth subverting all the potential for free expression the Internet provides, or not?

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if you accept the premise that the author of a work is entitled to be remunerated for the production of said work Then please elaborate why we should accept said premise. You just state it like it's an universal law of the universe. It isn't. No artisan (or actually, no one at all) is entitled to a successful business modell. And by the way, the "problem" aren't the people who are unwilling to pay for anything (whic…

> [The problem is] the people expecting to make money with art. It's cool if you can. If you can't, then you're not entitled to laws or monopolies that protect your failed business modell. Agreed that there's no entitlement to laws or monopolies. And I grant you that some ultra-libertarians oppose any restriction on their personal economic freedom, citing moral reasons. But society sometimes decides , for pragmatic r…

Its true that copyrights aren't very much like monopolies in the economic sense, but they grew out of the the older, legal meaning of that term. Back In The Day the grown would sell patents granting the owner a monopoly over the production of some good as a way of raising money quickly. This practice has quite thankfully died out as a way of raising revenue, but our current system of assigning exclusive rights to creators grew directly out of it. The Wikipedia article on the Statute of Monopolies is pretty interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#37
While I agree that our current intellectual property system is doing a great deal of harm (particularly due to it being slanted in favor of monied interests), there is a protect-the-little-guy rationale for some form of copyright.

Let's imagine a world without copyright. Suppose I spend a year writing a novel. This novel is great; it has the capacity to become the #1 bestseller, provided the right marketing is there. I go to my publisher and enter into a contract saying that I'll let them read my manuscript in exchange for them promising not to publish or sell it until we've worked out a deal.

So far so good. Contracts keep me protected in the world without copyright. I give them the manuscript, they love it, and they publish it.

All is well until a huge publishing company notices my book and starts printing and marketing it, without paying me or my publisher a dime. They manage to sell 100 times as many copies as my publisher, because mine is a small, independent operation, and the big company has a sophisticated and well-funded marketing machine.

This is one area where intellectual property laws, if properly designed, would protect smaller entities against larger ones. And that's where I think the real value of (hypothetical) intellectual property laws lies.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#38
easiest way for a government to bag some money is to liberalize to the private by means of copyrights. but what it does it slowly slaving it self to the private. one fine day the private will own the public completely and even copyright the constitution. so no other country can have its right to have rights.. pathetic system.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#39
post #7
post #5

Here's the rest of that letter from Thomas Jefferson. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_8s12.... It's interesting to realize that even such a fierce supporter of personal rights in our country didn't recognize ideas as something that should be "protected" like personal property.

Actually, "protecting" ideas as if they were property is in direct opposition to personal rights, so this should be expected. It's weird how "intellectual property" somehow got associated with personal liberty, the free market etc., when in fact it totally goes against those ideas.

I think "intellectual property" is an excellent example to use when distinguishing between free markets and capitalism. Free markets and IP are opposed for the same reasons that free markets are opposed to any other government granted monopoly. But IP laws extend the reach of capitalism into places that might be outside it without legal assistance.

Re: The 'intellectual property' oxymoron

#40
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you accept the premise that the author of a work is entitled to be remunerated for the production of said work That is not the premise, that is the matter in question. If it is simply assumed as the answer, nothing has been said. As to the idea of harm here, it is not in the actions or materials themselves. It depends on assuming the particular law is the baseline, and then saying without that the person would b…

Ethically it simply comes down to giving credit where credit is due. If you discuss a new idea that you have spent time formulating with a co-worker that is good for the company and the co-worker presents this idea to your common boss as their own and receive a promotion for it, is this ethically wrong?

Yes, that is wrong -- it seems covered by the ethics of lying/truth-telling (from Kant, it is contradictory: if lying were a universal rule, it would destroy the possibility of communication in general).

But IP is about more than just clear attribution. And clear attribution is not dependent on IP -- we can have it without the other IP features. So a justification of attribution is not sufficient to support IP too.

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