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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

bbc.com

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#81

Post by secondcoming »

gus_massa wrote: post #66
bellyfullofbac wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not this, but a native English speaker saying "That's the shit!" probably means "That thing is great" but someone who's not very fluent might think the speaker doesn't like the thing.

I guess it happens in all languages. Here in Argentina sometimes you can use some insults as a great compliment to a friend. [It's tricky to know when you can use them, which one, and have the correct intonation and body posture, so don't try it.] And you can use a compliment like " Muy bien. Te feliciiito. " (" Very good. I congratulate you. " But with a long ee sound in the middle of the last word) And it means som…

There are parts of the English speaking world where 'cunt' is used as term of endearment.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#82

Post by II2II »

js2 wrote: post #74

I think some commenters are taking issue with this article for singling out English. Yes, the larger issue is native vs non-native speakers in any language. But this article is specifically addressed to native English speakers because English often serves as the common language in a room of mixed-language speakers. I'm a native English speaker. I don't find the article offensive, and I appreciate it pointing out how…

> I'm a native English speaker. I don't find the article offensive, and I appreciate it pointing out how I can be a more effective communicator.

If you want people to communicate more effectively, then you state how to communicate more effectively. It is best to avoid criticism since the recipient is liable to take it poorly. Trying to be provocative will only result in the intent of the message being ignored.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#83

Post by xdennis »

lebuffon wrote: post #36

Two thoughts come to mind. 1. At one time in human history, not long ago, it was mandatory to have some facility in at least a 2nd language to claim you had a higher education. Partial mastery of a 2nd language would help native English speakers "get" what it's like for the non-native people and might help them adjust there speaking style. IMHO we have allowed "higher" education in English speaking countries to devol…

> "Lingua Franca" is probably one of those terms that one should not use internationally, unless you are in Italy, Spain, France, Portugal or Romania

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you perhaps confusing lingua franca with romance language?

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#84

Post by rjsw »

incrudible wrote: post #14

The gist here is that English needs to be dumbed down and stripped of any cultural references in order to be intelligible to an international business audience. No surprises there. To say that "native English speakers are the world's worst communicators" is quite a bold claim. Personally, I'd give that title to native French speakers.

> To say that "native English speakers are the world's worst communicators" is quite a bold claim. Personally, I'd give that title to native French speakers.

I'm a native English speaker with French as my second language. In my experience "Business French" doesn't have nearly as many problems as English.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#85

Post by Agingcoder »

There is another aspect beyond raw vocabulary and grammar, and that's unspoken cultural assumptions :not abbreviations and slang, but real misunderstandings caused by different understandings of what seems to be a set of perfectly obvious sentences to both sides .

A branch of my company went through a merger with another branch in a different country, and with a different language. Needless to say, it was difficult, and people didn't all take it well. The interesting part was that both sides thought the other side was being actively hostile, and were brandishing emails as 'proof'.

I was eventually asked to do something to reconcile both sides of the new merged team, since I am a native speaker of both languages and understand both cultures. I read the emails, and was flabbergasted. Side A could read email from B as hostile, but side B had genuinely sent something they thought was perfectly ok, and I could see why. The other way round was the same. To be more specific, some cultures are far more direct than others, and what seems offensive to one is perfectly acceptable to the other. The other way round would be saying something 'forcefully' but very indirectly, and the other side understanding it as 'no' when it meant 'yes'.

I ended up solving the problem by organizing a very nice lunch, where everyone realized the 'others' were actually nice and friendly human beings, and that email was not always the best way to communicate.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#87

Post by vixen99 »

phkahler wrote: post #10

This explains a lot. I only speak English, but I've been working on communicating more clearly. I used to provide a lot of backstory/context when talking because I wanted people to know how to interpret what I was about to say. It turns out the real problem was me not speaking plainly and simply. When you use the right words people are more likely to take what you say at face value (that's probably a phrase I shouldn…

Insofar as efficiency equates with precision (kind of, I would have thought), here's some data that doesn't take your view. English comes out top out of seven popular languages but only just.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/06/whats_the_most...

I wonder which you think is a more precise language than English? As a monoglot, I can't comment.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#88

Post by jakub_g »

On the subject: I highly recommend "The culture map" book.

It provides a dozen of dimensions on communication and compares on real world examples how American, German, French, Chinese, Japanese and several other nationalities approach certain situations, and summarizes each dimension with a scale and puts each country in the left/middle/right.

https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/

It talks things like "why X are so aggressive and direct" and "why Y are so $adjective".

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#89

Post by bernardv »

Yes, I can definitely relate to this. English is not my native tongue. I’m acutely aware of the presence of other non-native speakers in the room and instinctively switch to simple terms and avoid the use of colloquialisms. Native speakers generally do not have that instinct.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#90

Post by wirrbel »

okareaman wrote: post #40

As an older person who probably needs a hearing aid, I have the most problem with native English speakers not enunciating words. They go fast and run words together or mumble like Noam Chomsky. I have sympathy for ESL people trying to parse it. I always turn on subtitles if available. Also, a Brazilian friend says the don't use much sarcasm, so it gets difficult understand when English speakers use it so much to mean…

MTV Europe used non-native speakers in the 90ies, they would be understood across Europe. Native speakers pronounced 'better' but less pronounced.
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