Earlier quoted context omitted.
> awarding the multi-year contract to the elected government is strictly better than to a private company where there's little/much more indirect incentive to do anything in the interest of the consumer. Well... the incentives really aren't different for the government.
Actually they are because unlike shareholders who cares more about dividends then efficiency and service levels the government have stakeholders who care about efficiency and service levels.
UK Rail services to come under unified state control
161–170 of 383 posts
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> awarding the multi-year contract to the elected government is strictly better than to a private company where there's little/much more indirect incentive to do anything in the interest of the consumer. Well... the incentives really aren't different for the government.
It becomes a campaign issue (or does if it is an issue), which is what I mean is 'strictly better'. Not great, probably, but not worse in any other way that I can think of, and that is a positive (to whatever extent).
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
They privatised profits, but not responsibilities. I don't know why even a single person thought this was a good idea (unless they were on it for money). I think the privatisation could work if multiple companies could bid for a given journey / timetable slice, rather than having entire routes for themselves with no realistic way of removing them if the service goes bad.
They did privitise the risk too. After the failure of the east coast franchise recently, the government bailled out virgin, but that's not the fault of the system. If I want to travel from Birmingham to London I have a choice of 3 different train companies, as well as a coach company and driving (either hiring a car with or without driver, or using my own car). That's tons of competition, and it shows given the choic…
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> awarding the multi-year contract to the elected government is strictly better than to a private company where there's little/much more indirect incentive to do anything in the interest of the consumer. Well... the incentives really aren't different for the government.
It becomes a campaign issue (or does if it is an issue), which is what I mean is 'strictly better'. Not great, probably, but not worse in any other way that I can think of, and that is a positive (to whatever extent).
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
£300 for a train ticket and you are happy? Have you been on a train in China, France or even Czech Republic? This parody for 'competition' has given us most expensive fares in Europe and soviet-block quality of rail service. It's a new disease, 'neoliberalism of the brain' that maintains 'free market' even at the cost of organ failure
https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html > the next time someone says (or you read) "Britain has the highest rail fares in Europe", you'll know this is only 15% of the story. The other 85% is that we have similar or even cheaper fares, too. The big picture is that Britain has the most commercially aggressive fares in Europe, with the highest fares designed to get maximum revenue from business trav…
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't an area I know anything about, but is it correct to say that the points you are making are in some sense orthogonal to the nature of the ownership, i.e. public or private? I struggle to see how much meaningful competition can be achieved, so remain unclear about the value of private ownership, but it strikes me that decentralisation is perfectly within the realm of possibility for a publicly owned entity.
Network Rail which the GP was mostly talking about isn't privately owned. Rail Track, its predecessor was privately owned but it collapsed in 2002 after the Hatfield train crash. Following that it was bought by the government to create Network Rail.
I wanted to get their views on any industry-specific constraints around the orthogonality of "centralisation" and "ownership", because I feel like they are too frequently conflated (not by anyone in this thread, to be clear), despite not being inherently linked - but there might be some good reasons for that in the context of the current state of the British railway network.
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here's the formal press release from the UK government: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/great-british-railways-fo... And this is the actual document weighing in at 116 pages: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Pages 52 and onwards: "Replacing franchising" details the exact vision on how those contracts are to be set up. It states: > TfL Overground services and many railways across Euro…
I still don't understand what's the difference between the old franchising system and the new concessions. Can you ELI5?
Largely, the two systems are alike. They both grant permission to an organization to operate a railway service. The difference is in how the relationship is defined.
Franchising typically is about giving license to a franchisee allowing them to use intellectual property, know-how, products and so on in exchange for a fee and adhering to a set of obligations. The franchisee then is free to setup a business selling branded services and products.
A concession contract is different. It's an (exclusive) right which is granted to a concession holder giving permit to use an asset required to operate a service. Between private parties, a typical example would be a concession stand in a sports stadium (permit is giving for you to operate a drink, food, souvenir stand on the premises). Usually, the concession holder will pay a fee to the concessionaire.
A public service concession is a subcategory, and, depending on local legislation, works in a different way. The management contract doesn't provide leeway for the concession holder as to how to operate the service. The management contract specifies almost everything: fares, timetables, performance indicators, awards/penalties and so on. The operator collects revenue on behalf of the public authority.
So, why sign up for a public service concession? Because the concession holder gets a predictable source of revenue through public funding.
The theoretical benefit to the public is that the mode of operations resides with a public body which holds responsibility, and therefor can be held publicly accountable in a direct way as to how railroad systems are operated. In practice, disparate political interests can (and will) influence and even cause friction in how these concessions are governed.
That doesn't mean franchising is necessarily the better option. In this model, public control over the entire operational aspect of railway servicing is largely relinquished to private actors, any requirements set towards franchisees only represents a minimum bar for quality of service which they need to attain.
Shifting dynamics within the private market of franchisees (actors entering/leaving/getting acquired/...) may also impact the overall reliability of services. In a concession model, there's an (perceived) assurance that the same actors will continually operate a service for a predefined period of time according to set requirements.
As to which model is "better". I think exploiting national railway services is a complex problem domain which requires specific business expertise. Beyond the occasional reading online, I can confidently say that I'm absolutely not in a position to attribute absolute value to one over the other. Especially not at a point where information for this concrete case publicly available is limited to a white paper.
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually they are because unlike shareholders who cares more about dividends then efficiency and service levels the government have stakeholders who care about efficiency and service levels.
The government already had to care about that. They were losing votes to promises of nationalisation under Corbyn in 2017. This looks like an attempt to present a kind of Potemkin nationalisation to mollify the anger of people with £1k+ season tickets and cement their hold on voters drawn away from Starmer in the last election (who meekly dumped rail nationalisation as a policy).
This measure might be too little to really matter but the fact is that when you don't have an market(and for passenger rail you kind of don't) outsourcing operations to for-profit organisations provide nothing but a venue to funnel cash out of the system to private shareholders.
When there is an functioning market that is not tied to an government backed/guaranteed service it does make sense to subcontract work to private enterprise, but unless the government contracts represent a relatively minor portion of the subcontractors revenue and the subcontractor don't have more then say 20% market share, there is no functioning market, so all you end up with is an mercantilist structure of public risk and private profits if you still insist on pushing the task to private enterprise.
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
It becomes a campaign issue (or does if it is an issue), which is what I mean is 'strictly better'. Not great, probably, but not worse in any other way that I can think of, and that is a positive (to whatever extent).
Look how much hay Mussolini made from running the trains on time (which wasn't even the case, they just padded the schedule).
Well, if I'm a company using rail for freight or a worker depending on the rail to get to work, it already is a massive improvement if I can at least rely on the train being where it should be at the announced time. Improving the schedule for faster travel or shorter intervals is another thing, but predictability alone makes my life easier.
Re: UK Rail services to come under unified state control
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Actually they are because unlike shareholders who cares more about dividends then efficiency and service levels the government have stakeholders who care about efficiency and service levels.
Removing the incentive to make profit does not create incentives to improve efficiency and service. The government has no such incentives.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess you've never used the for-profit rail services of the UK then.
(I know this is quite snarky, but to elaborate, there is no incentive for the TOCs, because a operating a stretch of railway line doesn't have any competition. You don't need to be efficient or give good service because customers do not have an alternative choice of train they can use.)