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Poor in Tech

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Re: Poor in Tech

#651

Post by fatnoah »

magicalhippo wrote: post #28
est31 wrote: post #10

> I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her. That's IMO the worst behaviour of the rich listed in this article. I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers…

I'm definitely not poor, and I've always greeted the cleaning staff. That's not a sign of being poor, it's a sign of not being an ass.

>That's not a sign of being poor, it's a sign of not being an ass.

Seriously, why wouldn't you talk to the janitor or anyone else? They're the reason you have a clean place to work. I never got the "nothing in common" routine either. They're people, with lives and families and wants and needs. Yeah, they're not spending their day banging their heads against their desks solving reference counting bugs, but they're working to support their lives as best they can.

Re: Poor in Tech

#652

Post by fatnoah »

grayclhn wrote: post #222
TulliusCicero wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers at all. I worked at HQ as an engineer, and didn't notice any such thing. Most of the time I probably didn't say hi to cleaning staff, for the same reason I wouldn't say hi to most of the people I pass by in the office: because they weren't someone I knew. Of course this might vary depending on context, but I wa…

> Do other people say hi to every single person you see in the building every day? Yeah, pretty much.

>Yeah, pretty much.

I generally say hi to everyone as well, especially if I've made eye contact. At the very least, some kind of acknowledgement.

Re: Poor in Tech

#653

Post by buescher »

sokoloff wrote: post #625
buescher wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that difference, as I pointed out, is one reason why sensible used cars are overpriced. (Another is the "market for lemons" effect) Now you're comparing a $40K new car to a $8K used car, which is not a reasonable comparison. Yes, used cars will save you some money, but they will generally cost you more money than driving a new Corolla or Civic. Poke around on Edmunds' TCO calculator. The problem with your argume…

I took the average cost of a new car in 2020 or 2021. Make it a $28K new car instead of an $8K used car and you're still saving a ton of money even with a few repairs along the way. I know plenty of people who owe money other than a mortgage who are driving $50K+ cars/trucks and sometimes have more cars than drivers in the household (and both of those blow my mind for people with non-mortgage debt).

Why not compare it to a car you scrounged for free? I mean, I'm not just arguing with you to win points. I was you.

By the way. there are other problems with your math: you're double-booking the cost of the payment and the depreciation of the car. Really, play around with a total cost of ownership calculator like Edmunds'. It will be enlightening.

Let's look at the F-150, the most popular vehicle in America. For the regular cab XL 4WD trim level, a 2020 model is $38K (close to your $40k) with a five-year TCO of about $44K. A 2015 model is $24K... with a five-year TCO of $41K. That's a difference in TCO of $50/month. Hey, if you can save $50/month, do it, but don't tell me you're saving thousands every year.

Re: Poor in Tech

#654

Post by lazide »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #375
kls wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the article resounded with me, because being raised by my grandparents on a family citrus farm during the transition thru the NAFTA years and watching my family loose what little land wealth they had. It left an indelible mark, a mark of insecurity and fear and it lead to behavior like this. I remember one time, when I just started out in tech, I went to an interview for a group that was contracting for NASA, the…

Great story, helps me see the profound effect that such stresses put on a person. I got another clue out of it. That 'personal friend' was a user, a manipulator, a predator, and preyed upon folks like us. She must have felt something personal toward you else she'd never have said what she did and given up the raw deal she pushed over on you. To threaten to quit and get offered double - that's a situation to run from…

Who do you think would NOT be a ‘predator’ in that situation exactly?

Sounds like she offered insight and a 2nd chance to someone she thought would benefit from it, and then helped them build on it in a way that stuck.

Should she have been offering more than they thought they were worth? Who would that benefit? It would likely just cause anxiety and imposter syndrome.

That’s avoiding the whole issue of someone who knows what they’re worth and is able to stand up and ask for it is worth more than someone who does not or will not. To everyone.

Re: Poor in Tech

#655

Post by twic »

dang wrote: post #689
dang wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a case of the contrarian dynamic: an initial wave of objections to the article, followed by a wave of objections to the objections. The latter get upvoted, and so we end up with a top comment saying "I can't believe the comments in this thread" or (as in the current example) "the comments here are so $bad_somehow". Recent explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27145616 . More: https://hn.algol…

Replies are welcome, but I've collapsed this subthread to prevent the page from going too far off topic. Sorry—I know that my comment is just as off topic. But it has an educational function (at least under optimistic assumptions) and that requires people seeing it.

What if we shadowbanned all comments for half an hour, or an hour?

Re: Poor in Tech

#656

Post by lazide »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #297
isomorph wrote: post #116

Many of the comments on this article are so cold. I can’t believe it. When I read the original article I was imagining all the constructive ways HN readers would interpret it and hold a mirror up to their own behaviour. Some commenters are doing this. But it surprises and depresses me how many people are commenting saying “no, this list isn’t what it says it is, it’s a list showing the author has a negative mindset /…

This doesn't surprise me one bit. Tech is just another white collar country club. The rules are just slightly different than the bankers country club and the surgeons country club and the lawyer's country club. If you're not one of the people who typically joins that kind of club you can hack it but you won't feel like you belong or you might but it will take you many years.

Definitely not my experience, if for no other reason than the overwhelming portion that I know or have worked with is not white, was not born in this country (regardless of which country we’re talking about/in at the time), and I only know 1-2 with any sort of real social connections in the area they now live and work in. They haven’t done as well over the years as most, but there are outliers of course (Bill G being one prominent one of course).

Also no real generational tendencies (I only know 1 or 2 folks with parents in any sort of engineering or computer discipline), unlike doctors or the like.

Re: Poor in Tech

#657

Post by twic »

istjohn wrote: post #413
fmajid wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much racism in America is actually classism. That's why something like Henry Louis Gates being profiled by a neighbor and a policeman as he was trying to get back to his Harvard home makes the news: Gates is an educated upper-class black man, and in this case he was treated as the latter rather than the former.

I think you could argue that the opposite is true. Much classism in America is actually racism. For example, opposition to welfare programs have often been motivated by racist tropes like welfare queens. The truth is that racism and classism in America are deeply intertwined.

We have the same discourse around welfare in the UK, where the stereotypical poor person is white. I'll bet you a bag of Hot Cheetos they have it in Hungary, Japan, and other ethnically homogeneous countries.

Re: Poor in Tech

#658

Post by lazide »

pnutjam wrote: post #600
lazide wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies thrive (or die) off the difference between their costs and the amount they can get paid by customers. There are many unscrupulous bosses that will use underhanded tricks to convince people to take less pay to help widen that margin. In my experience it is ultimately self defeating and results in lower quality people staying. In the short term, it is amazing what people can be convinced to accept (been there…

I've had to change jobs in the past. A sudden job loss would be difficult; but I would have moved on if they hadn't given me the adjustment. I'm still getting offers that are similar to my new pay. Once I spun up my jobs network it takes awhile to spin back down. I'm not a hard negotiator and I frankly don't want to be. I prefer to give a little when I can, and I'll just move on if I feel I'm being abused. There are…

I’m glad you’re not actually that on the edge - I hope you believe it when push comes to shove and don’t forget.

In many cases, not feeling valued means you’re not getting the value you could be - and that can literally be millions of dollars over a career difference.

Re: Poor in Tech

#659

Post by cestith »

CountDrewku wrote: post #501
istjohn wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could argue that the opposite is true. Much classism in America is actually racism. For example, opposition to welfare programs have often been motivated by racist tropes like welfare queens. The truth is that racism and classism in America are deeply intertwined.

Explain how opposition to welfare programs is racism. Also, please explain why impoverished minority communities have not vastly improved regardless of the constantly increasing money tossed into welfare programs.

Have you heard of intergenerational wealth, which is one of the issues described in the OP article? Then, have you further heard of redlining, Jim Crow, slavery, sharecropping, lynchings, hiring discrimination, justice system discrimination, police discrimination, urban ghettoization, locally-funded school districts based on local property taxes, code switching speech, cultural discrimination on styles of dress and hair, and the digital divide?

Would you like to take any guesses of any of those issues not being involved in poor members of minority groups remaining poor?

Re: Poor in Tech

#660

Post by kelnos »

burntoutfire wrote: post #614
Tade0 wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it was mostly not being able to afford school books and clothes, shoes other than Chinese supermarket stuff - so something that wouldn't last two seasons. Also five people living in a 45m2 apartment - thankfully only until I was twelve or so. We reached a low point as a family when I was in college and my father, who left a few years earlier, stopped supporting us. Fortunately by that time I had a part-time jo…

A family member has told me a story of her poor childhood in the thirties in rural Poland. During springs, their family had to steal rotten potatoes from other people's fields and eat weeds to survive. THAT's being poor. What the original article describes sounds more like a anxiety over a risk of falling into poverty, than actual poverty.

I think a more precise term for it might be "financially insecure". You can make things work, it involves a bit of scraping here and there, but you are one bad-luck event (unexpected medical bill, car break-down, etc.) from being unable to pay your regular bills.

Being in such extreme poverty that you need to eat stolen rotten food and weeds is another category entirely.

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