Poor in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Poor in Tech

#641

Post by kelnos » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #629

that_guy_iain wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up dirt poor in a police no-go zone, went on to spend roughly 18 months in homeless hostels over a few years, etc. Honestly, I feel like lots of these are related to being a poorly paid member of the tech company or having work at more working class companies. When I started out, I literally ate toast for lunch every day because it was provided and I had no other money as time went on I got paid more and I was…

No desire to comment on the rest of the OP points, but the one about gym was the most baffling one to me. Out of all places I could think of, gym is one of the most accepting places ever for all kinds of people (including extremely obese people). From my own observations, people at the gym tend to fall in one of the 2 categories: they are either (a) extremely supportive or (b) totally not caring about anything but ge…

Not all gyms are created equal, and it's possible she (perhaps through ignorance or lack of choice based on the reimbursement) picked one that is full of judgmental people who are already fit and just go to the gym as status signaling and/or to maintain their fitness. Also, "gym" might mean some sort of "fitness class program", so it might not just be a big room with cardio equipment, free weights, and weight machines. The fitness class type does anecdotally seem to attract more of the status-conscious people than do-your-own-exercise type gyms do. (To be completely fair, the fitness class type does of course attract a lot of people just looking for a more structured way to get into shape.)

While I agree that most gyms are great places full of supportive people (or at least people who don't give you a second look and will leave you to do your thing in peace), there are also certainly some gyms that seem to exist more as status symbols than anything else.

But still, assuming she had a choice (again, maybe the company gym perk only covered one specific gym), she absolutely should not have given up after that one experience, and should have tried another gym. I do get how it can be hard enough to get yourself to go the gym in the first place, though, and a bad experience can completely drain any motivation to continue on.

Re: Poor in Tech

#642

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #610

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the office painkillers and office food are just plain convenient? Which is why the office supplies them in the first place? It has nothing to do with being "money obsessed." Maybe my office is some weird outlier, but nearly every one of these "i'm poor in tech because" examples apply to my office, despite us being wealthy in tech.

Well, yes, but are you the sort of independently generationally wealthy money-hoarder I'm referring to, or just one of the many folks who, while not poor, are still basically wage slaves who can't quit their jobs because they have a mortgage, kids, student loans, and need the health insurance? If you're the latter, the convenience factor is a money factor in disguise: you're so busy trying to maintain yourself and yo…

I think there are more groups of people than the two you described (money hoarders and basically wage slaves).

Re: Poor in Tech

#643

Post by Izikiel43 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #155

"Three paychecks is a month and a half of income (rent and two car payments by my fevered calculations, which never stop)" Pay attention to those last three words. This is very important. I've been on both sides too, and to me those words are like a slap in the face: stark reality. If you're poor enough (relative to the costs of your life) you are at a constant exhausting deficit because you CANNOT stop calculating a…

Coming from a country in constant economic crisis, thinking of what ifs all the time is the way of living, then moving to a 1st world country life suddenly enters easy mode, as you know problems in a 1st world country won't ever be as bad as what you used to know, and since you are used to having issues, budgeting and saving become easier.

A lot of the things the author mentioned, I would also do, just because I don't see the point of wasting money if they are offered for free, and saying hello to the cleaning crew is just basic human decency, c'mon.

Also, the paycheck stuff, anyone who has ever cared about money would throw a fit if the money is not in their account the next day, from what I gather all the author's coworkers never had an issue in their life.

Re: Poor in Tech

#644

Post by ryanbrunner » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #555

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're both kind of right here. The farmers market stuff is mostly BS. In the rural areas the weekly/biweekly shopping routine involves everyone (rich and poor alike) dragging their butts to the one strip mall in a 1-2hr radius and that strip mall will have at the bare minimum a super-walmart with a good fresh produce section or a Walmart with a grocery store beside it because that's the place where rich middle and p…

Why are farmers markets BS? "If you draw the food desert line at "no Whole Foods and no farmers market"" I don't think anyone is claiming that.

The idea that farmers markets are commonplace in rural areas is mostly BS. They exist in cities for sure, but you pretty much need an urban population (and probably a fairly well-off population) to really support a farmers market.

Just because farms exist in an area doesn't generally mean the people in that area are getting their food from those farmers (at least directly). That's mostly a relic of an old vision of farms that grew every type of produce and had a variety of livestock instead of the corporate monoculture farms that dominate today.

Re: Poor in Tech

#645

Post by throwawaybbq1 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #632

throwawaybbq1 wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes .. but. I had a great education/CV early in my career, and had the opportunity to interview at some of the top most companies prior to their IPO (some when they were tiny companies). Google, Facebook, Stripe and maybe 3 more that went on to be billion dollar exits. I screwed up every single time. Either I did not take the interview seriously, or took a more prestigious academic job compared to the start up opport…

I like the phrase "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity". So when you say you made bad decisions, didn't take it seriously, etc. it sounds like you recognize your own culpability in creating bad "luck". There is something to be said for overcoming the inertia of the (bad) ideas we may have been raised with. Malcolm Gladwell wrote in Outliers how wealthy parent raise their children to be more assertive. One of h…

Thanks for your kind words. I took it in a positive light, and appreciate your thoughts.

I usually bottle it in, but wrote the above post as a release. I'm definitely luckier than a good fraction of the planet. I also truly believe that at some point, we really need to stop blaming our parents, and take ownership for our own actions. It is just really hard some days, to face up to the missed opportunities.

Now that I have kids, I imagine advising myself as if I was advising my kids at some point in the future. That has really worked wonders. I'd advise my own kid to say c'est la vie, and move forward in life with optimism and confidence :)

Re: Poor in Tech

#646

Post by ryanbrunner » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #284

ryanbrunner wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rural areas being chock full of farmers markets is mostly nostalgia, anyone I know who lives in the country is far more likely to shop exclusively at Walmart than anyone in the city, and likely to prefer more non-perishable food (i.e. processed) because daily or multiple times a week shopping trips are infeasible. The farms in rural areas are generally focused on growing a single thing (either one type of livestock,…

"because daily or multiple times a week shopping trips are infeasible." Do they not have a refrigerator? Once per week trips (maybe even less) were the norm for me growing up, and I had plenty of fresh fruits and veggies. I've lived in multiple rural areas. Yes, many people do get food from Walmart. I can see some of the more remote people preferring some processed food. I can also see those remote people growing and…

> Do they not have a refrigerator? Once per week trips (maybe even less) were the norm for me growing up, and I had plenty of fresh fruits and veggies.

Yeah, I think we're agreeing - I'm saying that going to the grocery store once a week or less is probably going to result in purchasing a smaller percentage of fresh produce (certainly not none, but for meats in particular any less than once a week is starting to get sketchy in terms of keeping things fresh when refridgerated.)

CSAs for sure exist, but I see way more usage of them in urban areas. You're certainly not prevented from using them in rural areas (although delivery might not be available and pickup might be far less convienent than it would be in an urban environment).

This might be a function of where we're from, but in the countryside here hobby side farms by actual farmers are relatively rare and usually aren't producing enough to be considered much more than an in-season treat. I've never heard of milk delivery still being a thing (despite knowing a bunch of people living on farms), so I suspect you just have a different regional experience.

Re: Poor in Tech

#647

Post by mgh2 » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

strken wrote: post #176

isomorph wrote: post #116

Many of the comments on this article are so cold. I can’t believe it. When I read the original article I was imagining all the constructive ways HN readers would interpret it and hold a mirror up to their own behaviour. Some commenters are doing this. But it surprises and depresses me how many people are commenting saying “no, this list isn’t what it says it is, it’s a list showing the author has a negative mindset /…

In some ways it's a laundry list of ways rich people in the Bay Area act like wankers, which is interesting, but also quite irritatingly stereotypical. There are plenty who don't refuse to talk to the cleaning staff, lecture others on their choice of tampon, or snob fat people at the gym. I don't want people from outside the bubble (e.g. me, three years ago) to read this and think they'll be surrounded by wall-to-wal…

"They are nice because they are rich" - Parasite

Re: Poor in Tech

#648

Post by namelessoracle » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

kubb wrote: post #135

est31 wrote: post #10

> I knew I was the only poor person at my tech startup because I was the only person who would say hello to the cleaning lady as she meekly made her rounds around us when we worked late. Everyone else had a long habit of ignoring anyone like her. That's IMO the worst behaviour of the rich listed in this article. I've heard stories that at Google, the non-engineering workers at campus may not socialize with engineers…

This might be a learned defence mechanism against a general feeling of wearines with the state of the world. You might work a (relatively) well-paying job at a megacorp, but often you're confronted with colleagues that get promotions through what seems like bullshit projects, you see how useless your directors or even execs seem to be and how much cash they pocket, and you're forced to do some sham work yourself, may…

I am shocked that more people dont acknowledge that the more you get paid the less "hard" the work you do is.

Like there's an entire well known meme about rest and vest at Google. (Amazon and Netflix will bounce you though if rumors are true)

It's been true my entire life that every bracket of pay raise increase i've gotten has had a commensurate decrease in the amount of physical labor and mental exhaustion i would suffer. Going from minimum wage to 30k+ was a breath of fresh air. Going pass 100k was realizing you were living in a coal mine where everyone smoked and the 30k just meant you got to take clean air breaks every now and then. Of course then you have the attendant desperation in the US of "falling down" back to the level you were before and knowing the life style you live now can not possibly be sustained in those positions.

A simple mental exercise. When was the last time you had to ask permission to use the restroom at your place of employment?

One serious issue i've seen with alot of tech workers is that they have NO IDEA whats it's like to ever work minimum wage. They went from middle class existence to college to a tech job making more money than most people ever will. The minimum wage worker and even middle wage worker existence is invisible and nonsensical to them.

Re: Poor in Tech

#649

Post by brundolf » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

ludamad wrote: post #618

brundolf wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I've felt the gradual drift I'm not sure why there would even be a gradual drift? My friends who aren't in tech are generally my most fun and interesting friends. We play D&D, we have dinner or drinks at each other's houses, we talk about anime and music and video games, we play with each other's dogs. The only version of this I have experienced is the one where my non-tech friends are being forced out of my ci…

Do you own a house in that city? If so, you would suddenly have a ton of house ownership problems your friends can't relate to. It is those sorts of things I am referring to I can't help that one of my most active chats right now is speculative investing, and it simply is not a game for e.g. people with high rate debt Then what about making someone feel shitty for describing your day? That you took a day off due to s…

Sure, I guess those things just don't come up as much (and I will admit I intentionally avoid talking about certain subjects). But I wouldn't say that gradually erodes the friendship; we just relate over different things.

Re: Poor in Tech

#650

Post by lazide » Wed, May 19, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #546

watwut wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read my comment and comment I was responding to before writing yours? The parent complains that article listed things "act like wankers". Which clearly means "bad". Second, I worked with people who had completely different hobbies and interests than I do. I am not always in dominant majority, with climbing in that team I was. As far as I know, people having hobbies I don't care about is completely normal.

Yes, I read the parent comment. I originally typed out in my previous post that I felt you may have missed the point of the article, but I felt that was too harsh. I don't think the main takeaway from the article should be certain things commonplace in tech culture are "bad" but how it can be alienating. To that point, both yours and the parent post seem overly concerned with the "bad vs. good" distinction. I do have…

At some point, you have to decide to either;

1) talk about what you like, even if other people don’t connect well (be yourself at work?) 2) only like things other people connect with (seems limiting, but probably good for the social interactions) 3) pretend to like things others do and don’t talk about what you like (pretty much the definition of the conversationalist, but doing that all the time seems fake and probably unhealthy mentally for too long?) 4) never talk about anything controversial at all - aka the big Corp, how’s the weather answer.

You can’t be authentic AND make everyone happy. Literally impossible. If someone is alienated by someone talking about who they are, whose responsibility is that anyway?

I certainly wasn’t wealthy when I was growing up (or frankly had anything but hand me downs 90% of the time), but I still found ways to get out and do stuff I liked - salvaged old computers, went exploring in the desert, etc. it often meant not really connecting with mainstream folks (who were more interested in sports or the like), and I found it pretty alienating trying to have ‘small talk’ with 99% of the folks around me frankly.

Learning how to connect with them was a skill it took a lot of time and effort to hone - it would not have helped them or me to think they had a duty to not be who there were or care about anything but what they cared about IMO. Anymore than me any my stuff.