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Leaving Freenode for a new network

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Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#211

Post by Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL »

dTal wrote: post #193
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #145

Not sure about people pushing matrix as an alternative. I tried out Matrix several weeks ago and hated everything about it. From the account creation process, shiny modern UI, channel finding options, activity level (since you are basically constantly logged in, channels with even quite a lot of users have next to no activity for days at a time), kind of activity (and most of it was really poor activity, like someone…

>mass migration of channels ...has been happening for the past several hours. It's bedlam...

I think many are registering nicks and channels "just in case", I haven't seen true "migration" as of yet, meaning large public channels forcibly shutting down on Freenode.

Let the storm calm down and then we will see where we're at. The whole conflict seems to be opinionated ops clashing over governance rather than any serious privacy related issues imo. It still might bring Freenode down in the end, who knows, but I don't think panic is warranted.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#212

Post by at_a_remove »

tarkin2 wrote: post #76

IRC seems like drama central. I can’t say I understand the detail of this takeover and split. But the tone of all the messages are very dramatic. Why is that? Is it something inherent in the aggregated community of mods, channels and servers? Some communities seem ripe for drama and I have no idea why.

I started on IRC circa ... 1990? My older handles are still in the most ancient of helpfiles. Drama is practically built into the protocol.

First, last I saw, servers connected in a tree structure, so a "split" further down the tree structure, closest to the trunk, might take out quite a lot of users. Therefore, administrators closer to that trunk effectively control a larger population -- unless the admins of IRC servers toward the "leaves" connect with someone else.

Second, and again I am working from old memories, there were a lot of synchronization issues, so timing attacks were quite common. Join at just the right moment, and you could take over a channel. That has probably stopped.

Third, bandwidth usage can be intense as you approach the root, so most admins were originally piggybacking off of .edu connections. "My bandwidth, my rules."

Fourth, the protocol has evolved in many, many different ways. Originally, bans didn't even exist, you just had to hope that if you kicked someone, they stayed gone -- forkbots took amusing advantage of this. So, too, did the server code evolve, as well as the code for numerous clients, which were often vulnerable to buffer overflows.

Fifth, claim that name. NickServ had a period of not existing, so if someone wanted your nickname, flooding you off the net was an option. Whoever can DOS the most wins. Similarly, channel names were hotly contested, so combined with various attacks, you could "take over" a channel and depose people if ChanServ didn't exist -- and they didn't have bots busy re-opping them.

Pulling back, you see people from server admins down to channel owners and then half-ops, each appointed by those above, scrambling for bandwidth, knowledge, and names. It's nearly designed for drama.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#213

Post by baybal2 »

jaywalk wrote: post #202
baybal2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIA can't feed its own pilots, yet still goes doing outlandish foreign acquisitions. They will sell their last airliner, but will still cling on to stuff like Roosevelt hotel, and such.

In this instance, PIA is referring to the Private Internet Access VPN service, not Pakistan International Airlines.

Uh, it got to me now. Performing the facepalm maneouvre

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#214

Post by dspillett »

yakubin wrote: post #117
toyg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the first IRC drama I'm hearing about. How old are you? For my generation (40+), IRC and drama are basically synonyms. It seems to have subsumed a lot simply because younger folks don't use it as much as we did.

23. Been using IRC on and off since I was 14.

So since ~2012. I've not used IRC since before then so maybe things have been relatively calm in those nine years, but IRC has been around since 1988 and has a long history of drama arguably starting with the first big split in 1990.

While not caring to know the details of past drama is fine, to be _completely_ unaware of it seems both rather myopic and somewhat naive IMO. Have you never taken any interest in the history of the tools you use or the Internet generally?

I've not been aware of any world wars since I joined the world in 1978, have any really happened?

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#215

Post by gpanders »

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #145

Not sure about people pushing matrix as an alternative. I tried out Matrix several weeks ago and hated everything about it. From the account creation process, shiny modern UI, channel finding options, activity level (since you are basically constantly logged in, channels with even quite a lot of users have next to no activity for days at a time), kind of activity (and most of it was really poor activity, like someone…

Your UI complaints apply only to Element (the flagship client) rather than to Matrix the protocol. As others have said, there are other, less-flashy clients available (and others under development).

Some examples:

Quaternion: https://github.com/quotient-im/Quaternion

Hydrogen: https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web

Nheko: https://github.com/Nheko-Reborn/nheko

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#216

Post by almostbasic »

Private Internet Access has no connection to Freenode at all anymore. It WAS owned by London Trust Media, which also owned PIA, however Kape Technologies acquired PIA in December of 2019 and has had no connection since then. We do not have any involvement or knowledge of any takeover of Freenode.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#217

Post by dspillett »

synergy20 wrote: post #130

freenode is like a public utility for many developers, now one person with some cash suddenly owns it. maybe from now on each well-known essential OSS project like freenode should have a donation page and make it clear, unless it has enough fund to continue operations for the year its service will have to pause, so it can be self-sustainable for good. and yes make it a non-profit for tax purposes.

Having enough funds to survive a projected period of time in no way precludes management finding the idea of more funds[†] rather attractive, even if the projected survival period was effectively until some infinity.

[†] for the project, for themselves, or some mix of both, apply your preferred level of cynicism here

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#218

Post by ValentineC »

russss wrote: post #176
lutoma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like this is a shortcoming of the English (and American) legal system, where non-profit organizations and such can only be founded as "regular" companies and then tax-exempted. This means they are still subject to all the normal procedures surrounding companies like sales, and still tend to have one or a few owners who are solely in charge of everything. By comparison, many other European countries (Ge…

> It seems to me like this is a shortcoming of the English (and American) legal system, where non-profit organizations and such can only be founded as "regular" companies and then tax-exempted. This means they are still subject to all the normal procedures surrounding companies like sales, and still tend to have one or a few owners who are solely in charge of everything. This isn't true in the UK. There's a structure…

> This isn't true in the UK. There's a structure called a Company Limited by Guarantee, which has no shareholders so it can't be sold. It's an association.

There's one more structure that's (so far) exclusive to the UK: the Charitable Incorporated Organisation [1].

It can be founded as either a foundation (trustees and voting members are the same) or association (usually a larger group of voting members).

The key advantage of a CIO versus a CLG are the less onerous compliance requirements, which go a long way towards keeping smaller charities cheaper to run.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_incorporated_organi...

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#219

Post by ValentineC »

andrewaylett wrote: post #105
lutoma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me like this is a shortcoming of the English (and American) legal system, where non-profit organizations and such can only be founded as "regular" companies and then tax-exempted. This means they are still subject to all the normal procedures surrounding companies like sales, and still tend to have one or a few owners who are solely in charge of everything. By comparison, many other European countries (Ge…

I think you may be looking for a CIO, or (in Scotland) a SCIO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charitable_incorporated_organi... . Do note, though, that it's insufficient to be a "non-profit" in order to become a "charity". Also, we have more than one type of limited company, and some are more amenable to community interest than others. A company limited by shares will likely have either concentrated or tradable owners…

> Going in the other direction, the charity I chair isn't a company at all -- we're an unincorporated association. Which isn't usually the best structure for a charity nowadays, but we make do with what we have.

Is there a reason your members aren't interested in incorporating? Protection from individual liability is huge.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#220

Post by Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL »

gpanders wrote: post #215
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #145

Not sure about people pushing matrix as an alternative. I tried out Matrix several weeks ago and hated everything about it. From the account creation process, shiny modern UI, channel finding options, activity level (since you are basically constantly logged in, channels with even quite a lot of users have next to no activity for days at a time), kind of activity (and most of it was really poor activity, like someone…

Your UI complaints apply only to Element (the flagship client) rather than to Matrix the protocol. As others have said, there are other, less-flashy clients available (and others under development). Some examples: Quaternion: https://github.com/quotient-im/Quaternion Hydrogen: https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web Nheko: https://github.com/Nheko-Reborn/nheko

with UI I meant user interface, but also to some degree feature set. I know they want to have it modern, but the charm of IRC to me is that it's a simple stream of text messages. No 'answering' to specific messages, URL previews, reacting to messages with smileys and a thumbs up, et cetera. Also quite a few of the clients listed on the official website are inactive or as of now "incomplete" (aren't yet full featured), so in the end I went with the official client (as it seemed the best bet to just try it).

A simpler client would do away with some of it, but some of my complaints have to do with the features the protocol implements rather than the client.

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