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Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

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661–670 of 818 posts

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I always find it interesting that statements like that ("scalpers hurt literally everyone") can just be made and treated as gospel by most people. Not only is the statement not self-evident, but to your point, just a small amount of thought on the issue makes it obvious what the value is. People love to get mad at a scapegoat rather than a root cause. So you blame the scalper rather than realizing that the conce…

> The irony is of course that selling at an artificially low price doesn't suddenly make it not for rich people, it just adds a small random chance that you'll be able to convert your own time sitting there refreshing the website across many browsers into a cheaper-than-it-should-be ticket. That depends on the level of demand and how low the price is. It's pretty easy to have a situation where the number of tickets a…

> It's pretty easy to have a situation where the number of tickets available is higher than the number of people that would have bought tickets for themselves on day one, but you hit immediate shortages when scalpers are also buying.

But the total number of people buying tickets is the same, all that's happen is it's being temporally shifted for the gain of the people that can afford to do so. This only works because the actual offered price of the tickets if far below that real cost people are willing to pay. If tickets were initially offered at an accurate price, there would be no money to be made buying them for resale (well, almost. There's still the option for artist demand to change over time with popularity).

There's only a few solutions to a supply and demand market problem where demand far outstrips supply that actually seem to work. Increase supply, or decrease demand. This has actually been done by some artists and solved the problem. Kid Rock, for example is known to play a large number of dates at a location, inundating with supply to the point only the best tickets can be sold for appreciable markup. Like, in his home town of Detroit, I think he played between 7 and 11 consecutive days in a stadium. Other artists will add dates after the initial sale depending on demand (which often destroys broker profits unless all those dates sell out too).

> In a situation like that, scalpers are doing almost all harm. They add liquidity to a situation that already had enough liquidity, and extract tons of money in exchange.

How good the liquidity there was and how much harm the brokers caused depends on how accurately demand matched supply. If there were 1000 ticket and 1000 people would ahve eventually bought them, then the brokers didn't really help. At the same time, they probably aren't going to make much money, since 1000 people willing to pay $40 doesn't necessarily mean those 1000 people are willing to pay $60, and given that reseller exchanges charge about 10% of the sale cost, they need to charge a lot more to make a profit. Brokers don't tend to want to buy for events where they can't really make money, so they try to avoid these events.

Alternatively, if the event has more tickets than consumers to buy them, brokers don't want to buy those either. Sometimes they do, and they sell at below market, sometimes well below market, just to recoup some of their money (having 20 tickets of 1000 at the event you bought for $40 when there's still 200 for sale on the primary market when the event is in a week means lots of tickets for sale for $20 or way less).

Finally, there's events where there's a lot more consumers than there are tickets. Perhaps there weren't enough tickets at the sale day to sell out immediately. It would have sold out well before the event date though, because there are way more consumers than tickets. In this case, at that point liquidity would have dried up. Brokers provide liquidity over the lifetime of the event. That's what they provide, and for that they extract money. There's a debate to be had as to whether they provide enough value for that service, but it's false to say the event had "enough liquidity", as if there was enough liquidity there would be no margin for brokers to make money, especially not the 10% cost on sale price needed to make a profit on the exchanges.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#662
post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make $7-8 per day, after electrical costs, letting my 2080ti (normally used for flight sim, but when not in use…) run nicehash’s miner software. My electricity costs $0.0816 per kWh. Not a ton of money but it adds up after a month and the GPU was a sunk cost since I got it for gaming. It literally is profitable, for my situation anyway.

Please stop doing that. You are just wasting energy.

But gaming is fine, that's not a waste of energy at all.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real reason Nvidia is doing this is that when mining profitability inevitably drops, either because of a crypto price crash or Ethereum moving to Proof of Stake, the miners will flood the used market and ruin Nvidia's profits for a few quarters. Nvidia is trying to get miners to buy mining-only cards, because those can't be sold to gamers down the line. They'd rather mining cards become e-waste in a few years t…

> ”Nvidia has no incentive to make sure the GPU market operates in a sustainable way by supporting a secondary market.” They do in the sense that buyers often consider future resale values when making primary purchase decisions. It’s much easier to justify purchasing a $2500 “enthusiast” graphics card if you’re confident you can get a decent chunk of that back when you sell it in 6-12 months. Similarly, car makers ar…

In my experience base level items have much better resale value then more expensive items. It's true for notebooks, graphic cards and cars too. For example my iPhone 11 Pro has fallen to half of the price in one year, but entry level iPhone 11 probably has still 70% of its value. Same for Macbook Air, entry level with 8GB and 256 SSD will hold value better then maxed out one. Same with cars, extra premium equipment has basically no value for people that are buying used cars. So doubt that premium graphic cards are exception. Their value falls sharply over time, so not sure people buying them are considering resale value as argument to buy them.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your friends were acting in the wrong and in the aggregate they did harm the market Please explain this harm to the market. I don't see how the market was harmed in any way. > They create scarcity in the primary market, which forces people into the secondary market. There exists scarcity in the primary market, because otherwise there would be no benefit to buying the tickets. That's a fundamental misunderstanding y…

> So is Amazon You lost your entire argument right there. Amazon doesn't price gouge, and buys with the express intent to sell with reasonable margins to customers. They provider valuable services, like customer service and fast delivery. Scalpers provide jack shit value other than trying to rip off customers because they got something first, while offering no other value to customers. > they provide liquidity No, th…

> Amazon doesn't price gouge

I didn't say they did. But by the argument of the GP, they are often (depending on the product) "needless middlemen in a market that already sells direct to consumers", which is what I was responding to.

> They steal liquidity

They offer stuff for sale in markets which would have nothing for sale at other times (because if supply didn't outstrip demand, there would be no profit to be made). That is liquidity where it might not have existed previously.

I understand not liking scalping. I don't necessarily like it (I would prefer there was enough supply to satisfy demand). But there's a difference between not liking something and not understanding it and denying the reality of it. You can't stop it without understanding what makes people buy things to resell at a profit, why others are willing to pay that extra amount, and why there aren't enough of that thing to go around in the first place which allows it to happen.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, why are non-crypto consumers better than crypto ones from a utilitarian POV? (I play video games and dislike crypto - I'm just asking). I suppose that people do things other than gaming with 3080s, because I would be hard pressed to make a convincing argument that gaming is somehow so much more valuable of a hobby than mining crypto that it's worth the hit to general purpose computing to specifically ban cryp…

I think the missing factor here is that mining groups are sort of like neo-feudalists. If crypto ends up becoming the de facto world currency, then mining groups that are already wealthy purchasing all available stock of GPUs to mine and further enrich themselves is sort of like if 70% of land was owned by wealthy nobles, and they used the profits from their land ownership to purchase all new land-producing/discoveri…

> 70% of land was owned by wealthy nobles, and they used the profits from their land ownership to purchase all new land-producing/discovering capital and therefore become the owners of all new land coming onto the market

So, basically, like REITs? It's funny that graphics card feature sets are what generate moral outrage when a feudal regression happening in real time before our very eyes in regards to the basic necessities of life.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#667
post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”Nvidia has no incentive to make sure the GPU market operates in a sustainable way by supporting a secondary market.” They do in the sense that buyers often consider future resale values when making primary purchase decisions. It’s much easier to justify purchasing a $2500 “enthusiast” graphics card if you’re confident you can get a decent chunk of that back when you sell it in 6-12 months. Similarly, car makers ar…

I would really like to see some data on how much resale value factors in for purchase decisions in regards to gaming equipment in average.

Some anecdata, I buy midrange cards and never try to sell them. They usually end up in the machines of friends or family.

The purchase price is what I am willing to spend on the device and it's usage, and a healthy dose of pragmatism about what is actually necessary.

I also overclock to stretch their usefulness out but I must admit the leaps in each generation recently, as well as some fundamentally new technology capabilities mean I am not keeping up as well.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#668
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miners undervolt and often underclock though: heat is their enemy, so they’re more particular about this than gamers are these days.

They also sometimes do GPU BIOS modifications, which is a fun thing to discover once the card ends up on the second-hand market and you happen to buy one. Luckily the fix is to reflash the BIOS using a matching one from TechPowerUp GPU database, but this assumes that you even know that this is something to pay attention to. Source: happened with an RX 560 that I bought second-hand. Driver installation failed in Windo…

Any idea what they modified?

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#669
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I woke up early back on launch day in October 2020 to buy a 3080 when they said it would be available. Couldn't get one. Periodically I'd check newegg and other sites to see if the shortage is gone. Nope, on 05/18 it's still out of stock everywhere. Throwing $750 on a piece of hardware to play games shouldn't be this horrendous of an experience. I for one am glad nVidia is doing something about it.

They should just raise the prices. Supply and demand, you know?

So, you think poor people shouldn't be allowed to play games?

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#670
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is unsustainable about Bitcoin?

For one thing, it consumes more electricity than the entire country of Norway: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-the-power-consu...

Correction: you need more energy than Norway to attack the system.
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