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Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

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Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#481

Post by mikepurvis »

riknos314 wrote: post #456
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nvidia is trying to get miners to buy mining-only cards I thought the non-LHR cards are fully featured?

They have a SKU specifically targeting miners https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/cmp/

There is some precedent for hacking ex-miner cards to route the video signal back to a motherboard output over the PCI bus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY4s35uULg4

With so many more of them out there, it'll be interesting to see if this becomes more of a thing. Alternatively, it's easy to imagine that depending on just how constrained these are, they might eventually find homes doing non-crypto headless DC workloads, such as deep learning stuff.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#482

Post by zucker42 »

ahD5zae7 wrote: post #172

Actually, is there a need to block anything? They're coming up with a mining-focused product line now. Just make them slightly cheaper per hash and voila - all miners will be buying the mining-focused products. They lack the video outputs so it makes sense, you can skip some of the BOM on the card, save a few bucks. As it has already been mentioned in the thread miners are super sensitive to squeezing every cent out…

> Just make them slightly cheaper per hash and voila

The problem is they want the mining cards to be more expensive per hash.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#483

Post by stormbeta »

lstamour wrote: post #235
akersten wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The e-Waste part is what should collectively anger us, but I'm glad you're able to buy your card.

What about the electricity cost for powering the card. Doesn’t that outweigh the e-waste part by a significant margin? Just because a card can’t be used by gamers doesn’t mean the card must be tossed, there are plenty of non-gaming uses such as AI. You’ll probably see an aftermarket for both types of cards. Also, like regular graphics cards, newer versions are highly prized so one might say that graphics cards as an…

> Also, like regular graphics cards, newer versions are highly prized so one might say that graphics cards as an industry is already all about e-waste. Unless you’d like to buy my Radeon 9800 or my GTX 1070? They’re still perfectly good for gaming… except everybody wants the new RTX ray tracing etc.

This is highly inaccurate, particularly on the used market. People want cards that can handle whatever games they play within their budget. A lot of older cards run tons of games quite well still, especially if you accept lower framerates / resolutions.

RTX in particular isn't actually that coveted by gamers from what I've seen. It's seen as a nice-to-have at best.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#484

Post by gpanders »

californical wrote: post #472
gpanders wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their intent is to limit what people can do with their hardware. That strikes me as almost morally wrong. I tell the computer what to do. It doesn't tell me what to do. If you need to run millions of hashes per second then buy one of the non-LHR models. No one is forcing you to buy one of these chips and Nvidia is not taking anything away from you. This is like saying that Intel limits what people can do with their…

This is different than just product segmentation or binning chips - this is hardware restricting software. How would you feel towards Intel if they didn’t allow you to run Microsoft Office on an i3 chip because it’s a “consumer grade processor” - you have to upgrade to an i5 or higher to run “business programs”.

But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re simply limiting the hash rate. You can still run mining software, it just won’t be very good at it.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#485

Post by comboy »

wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

"This reduced hash rate only applies to newly manufactured cards with the LHR identifier and not to cards already purchased."

I think you got that, but just to be super clear that is the case.

No need to be angry as far as I understand that's how chips are made nowadays. You can have wildly different consumer offerings on the same die.

You buy 3 inflated balloons, seller takes five of them and while you are watching pops 2. "Did you really have to do that"? In chip manufacturing this makes a lot of sense. Your anger is basically towards a manufacturing process and naming not the end product. And the process is just highly optimized while naming keeps thing pretty transparent - it wouldn't look good if they tried to sell it as a completely new card.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#486

Post by smoldesu »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #477
smoldesu wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia is implementing a hardware fuse system (a-la the Nintendo Switch) to prevent firmware manipulation. I can't speak to how secure these new cards will be, but the Tegra was an absolute pain in the ass to work with. It took a year before people even figured out how the firmware was loaded, much less how to interoperate between custom and official ones without blowing a fuse. To this day, approaching half a decade…

Hardware fuse? Trying to run custom software can actually brick hardware now?

Not exactly, but it can be used to prevent you from running custom firmwares or reversing an update. On the Switch, each update would burn a physical fuse on the board, giving the OS a reliable way to determine what the latest update that Switch received was. Prior firmwares cannot be booted on a device with too many fuses burned, which is why the "1.0.0 Nintendo Switch" is going to become an increasingly hot commodity in the coming years.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#487

Post by paulmd »

wpietri wrote: post #313
wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

I'm all for it. My system with a 3080 had a hardware issue so I needed to swap it for a new one. It took me weeks of shenanigans with the vendor because they couldn't get a new card to send me a new system. And that was after a month's wait to get the original system, also due to supply constraints. I have actual work to do, and am fine with NVidia making it harder for make-money-fast potlatchers if that means I can…

AIB partners are selling a significant number of GPUs directly to miners, bypassing the distribution chain, without warranty, at about 30% higher prices than the distributors pay.

So just FYI this largely comes down to your vendor making a decision that they'd rather sell a card to a miner than service your warranty request. They have cards, just not for you.

https://videocardz.com/newz/chinese-gpu-miners-are-now-bulk-...

> We have heard many stories where miners in China are queuing up to NVIDIA board partner factories in hopes to buy graphics cards in bulk. Some AIBs agree to sell cards directly to them because those clients pay more (usually 1/3 more than any distributor) and they get limited or no warranty at all.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#488

Post by smoldesu »

munk-a wrote: post #463
humaniania wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No money in video game piracy? What? https://jolt.richmond.edu/2019/02/09/the-unwinnable-war-on-v...

Eeeeeh, I give a lot less credence to that then I did when I was in college - back then it seemed like everyone was pirating everything (because, facts) but now a days a major consumer for video games is the millennials that have passed the cash vs. free time tipping point of piracy being attractive. Also, reasonably priced services now exist - I used pandora when I was in college and enjoyed it even with how hamstru…

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. If you're trying to claim that piracy has no value proposition, then you're missing a market of people who maintain these torrents/sites with the hopes of archiving them for the future.

> Nintendo's anti-piracy efforts are so incredibly misguided - the hardware is the majority cost expenditure for most users and you've already collected that cost so why not try and make your platform not annoying.

Because they don't make money on the Switch. In fact, in the first few months of selling it, they were losing about $30 on every unit sold because of how expensive shipping was. Even today, the Switch runs a pretty thin profit margin, if any. Same goes for the PS5 and Xbox Series X, which gives you a pretty good idea of why these companies are so keen to keep an iron grip on software distribution.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#489

Post by danielheath »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #477
smoldesu wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia is implementing a hardware fuse system (a-la the Nintendo Switch) to prevent firmware manipulation. I can't speak to how secure these new cards will be, but the Tegra was an absolute pain in the ass to work with. It took a year before people even figured out how the firmware was loaded, much less how to interoperate between custom and official ones without blowing a fuse. To this day, approaching half a decade…

Hardware fuse? Trying to run custom software can actually brick hardware now?

The switch contains a lot of hardware fuses, with an instruction to blow one.

IIRC it's used (among other things) to set a minimum firmware revision - after upgrading to a new (signed) firmware it blows a fuse so you can no longer run an older signed firmware, which stops you rolling back to when a vulnerability still existed.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#490

Post by cletus »

I hope this is more successful than the last attempt (3060 Ti) where the "crippling" was just software and it was quickly circumvented, partly through NVidia's own screw up (they released a beta driver that didn't have that limitation).

It's almost impossible to buy a GPU now. Anywhere you can occasionally buy them is heavily botted. Some sellers try and mitigate this eg Zotac has a queue system of questionable effect. Others do absolutely nothing (eg Amazon).

You might say that's just supply and demand but it's not in NVidia's long term interest for crypto-miners to buy every GPU. Why? It kills the market for ML and gaming.

What happens is as soon as the crypto market next crashes, those GPUs get offloaded and flood the market.

I absolutely support NVidia in this, for several reasons. First, I'd actually like to buy a GPU for personal use. Second, there are real ethical questions around crypto, especially PoW. That will offend some people but it's true. Apologists will point to most crypto-mining using renewable energy. Yes, because hydro is the cheapest power. But all the hydro power use can actually limit the power and/or make it more expensive for everyone else.

Wouldn't it be funny if crypto-mining is the solution to the Fermi Paradox where civilizations ultimately ended up cooking themselves in crypto-mining waste heat?

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