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Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

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Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#371

Post by the_cat_kittles »

barrkel wrote: post #303
wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

It's market segmentation, and it's not a new strategy. The market is bimodal. There's the crypto miners and there's the gamers. Right now, gamers are getting starved out and middlemen are pocketing the surplus selling gaming cards to crypto miners. Nvidia want to capture more of that surplus for themselves, while also taking money from the gamers. Satisfy both markets with different products at different prices, pric…

a succinct, correct explanation imo. if your angry, it should be at crypto before anything else. a largely useless tech that has lots of negative externalities, like this one.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#372

Post by lamontcg »

Corazoor wrote: post #324

I find the argument for this move unconvincing: Nvidias failure to meet demand is somehow the fault of... the customers? But since there are morally aprehensible workloads, it is totally fine to... throttle them? Not prevent or contractually prohibit, as one might expect... And of course it is Nvidia who decicdes on the morals of your workload. I mean, seriously, how can anyone be ok with that?

This is how community standards works.

The government should never mandate that video card manufacturers do this, or don't do this.

If you don't like it, set up your own video card business that caters to crypto mining.

The vast majority of NVidia customers are applauding this move though.

This is the free market working, but if you're into crypto you may not like it because you're not winning the marketplace of ideas.

(And IMO if you support cryptocurrency you should appreciate this as well, because astronomically high GPU costs for gamers erodes the standing of cryptocurrencies in that demographic, it is very bad PR to just let GPU costs inflate -- people start to vehemently hate cryptocurrencies because of that effect).

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#373

Post by Frost1x »

wpietri wrote: post #341
Corazoor wrote: post #324

I find the argument for this move unconvincing: Nvidias failure to meet demand is somehow the fault of... the customers? But since there are morally aprehensible workloads, it is totally fine to... throttle them? Not prevent or contractually prohibit, as one might expect... And of course it is Nvidia who decicdes on the morals of your workload. I mean, seriously, how can anyone be ok with that?

You realize you're making a moral argument against moral arguments, right? If you'd like to know how people are ok with this, it's been explained plenty already, right here in this discussion.

I think it's just an argument against a unilateral decision by NVIDIA under the facade of morals. Businesses aren't people and don't have morals, everything they do is strategic and profit motivated, even if the people that compose them have morals.

My guess is that NVIDIA doesn't want one basket of demand dominating the majority of their demand while disenfranching all of their other demands in parallel computing (graphics, industrial/scientific, etc.). If they allow crypto to take the lionshare of their cards, consumers for the other demands will eventually seek out alternatives if they haven't already. That's all well and fine as long as crypto demand sustains whatever NVIDIA can supply indefinitely.

It's not so great if crypto demand for GPUs drops drastically, then NVIDIA is sitting there looking to drum demand back up from all their previous customers and markets. Essentially, they're likely just trying to distribute risk for a future demand portfolio.

I can't honestly believe any large investors or top level executives at NVIDIA are losing a second of sleep by having so much demand they have to turn people away. If they're losing any sleep it's all the lost profit they can't make because they can't meet full demand or because they're in a potentially risky situation.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#374

Post by ChicagoDave »

wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

They have separate product lines for mining. I don't understand the complaint. NVIDIA probably gets a ton of complaints about miners "stealing" all of the GPU cards.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for them segregate the capabilities for their varying consumers.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#375

Post by tshaddox »

just-ok wrote: post #331
tshaddox wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace “principle” with “scientific theory.” Why shouldn’t principles be subject to tests and criticism?

In the same way that a scientific theory was meaningless if it failed a test, a principle was meaningless if it needed to be adjusted when actually put to use.

Superseded scientific theories aren’t all “meaningless.” Newton’s laws of motion are superseded, but they aren’t meaningless, and you presumably wouldn’t say that scientists who updated their beliefs in the face of new evidence and explanations were doing anything wrong.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#376

Post by colordrops »

wpietri wrote: post #313
wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

I'm all for it. My system with a 3080 had a hardware issue so I needed to swap it for a new one. It took me weeks of shenanigans with the vendor because they couldn't get a new card to send me a new system. And that was after a month's wait to get the original system, also due to supply constraints. I have actual work to do, and am fine with NVidia making it harder for make-money-fast potlatchers if that means I can…

I bought an MSI desktop with a 3080 specifically for gaming. I didn't even know you could mine ethereum with a 3080 until after buying it. I've been running a miner using power from my solar cells when I'm not gaming. I don't deserve to have my card crippled. Fuck NVidia.

EDIT: Ok, I bothered to read the article. This is a hardware measure for new cards, not existing cards.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#377

Post by swiley »

wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

Meh. It's pretty consistent with Nvidia's behavior. If you don't like being Nvidia's bitch then buy AMD and use open source drivers.

Sorry for the strong wording but if people didn't tolerate this crap from GPU vendors that would solve a lot of problems everyone has. You mention attacks on personal computing, the main reason everyone is stuck with vendor provided Android system software on their phones is because the closed GPU drivers are heavily coupled with it. Otherwise lots of people would have dumped it when they crippled the file API and started creating problems for termux. Because of this there's no real competition for iOS so Apple and Google can pretty much get away with whatever they want.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#378

Post by babypuncher »

_vertigo wrote: post #145
wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

It's honestly pretty surprising to me to see how many people on here are supporting this move. That's not what I would expect, I would expect people on HN to object to this move on principle. Maybe my prediction in where most HN commenters stand in principle on this issue is wrong, or just maybe, this is a rare example of a time when the principle (hardware should be free to run at their max capability, not deliberat…

Without price discrimination, everyday users end up paying more for a given product while for-profit entities would pay less.

When a company releases a product, they price it according to how much profit they want to make per unit sold. Market segmentation allows them to sell their product at a lower margin to lower income users and shift much of that profit burden to corporate customers who can easily afford it.

Where I take issue with this practice is when manufacturers start suing users who modify their own hardware to enable features that they didn't pay the manufacturer for. Tesla selling heated seats as a software upgrade is a good example. It's fine if they want to build the hardware into every Tesla and only enable it for users that pay for it, but suing customers who modify their vehicle to turn on the heated seats on their own is way out of line.

I don't think Nvidia is going too far here, unless they start suing customers who try to write custom drivers that bypass the limitation.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#379

Post by orangecat »

_vertigo wrote: post #145
wbraun wrote: post #2

Does this behavior anger anyone else on a deep level? I get that its hard to buy GPUs right now, but this seems like such an attack on general purpose computing. Hardware manufactures already segment features between consumer and busness grade parts that the silicon itself is capable of, such as virtualization, but restricting what algorithms one can run is a whole new level. I am pretty sure my next GPU is going to…

It's honestly pretty surprising to me to see how many people on here are supporting this move. That's not what I would expect, I would expect people on HN to object to this move on principle. Maybe my prediction in where most HN commenters stand in principle on this issue is wrong, or just maybe, this is a rare example of a time when the principle (hardware should be free to run at their max capability, not deliberat…

It's honestly pretty surprising to me to see how many people on here are supporting this move.

Unfortunately, I'm not surprised. Support for general purpose computing and user freedom has fallen substantially in the last several years. Look at iOS, where many geeks are happy to have a megacorporation tell you what you're allowed to run on "your" hardware.

Re: Nvidia cripples cryptocurrency mining on RTX 3080 and 3070 cards

#380

Post by nybble41 »

542458 wrote: post #143
akersten wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GPUs have been doing this forever though. This is exactly the same as some features being enabled on quadros that don’t exist on RTX/GTX/GT cards. No, I think this is the first time a GPU has been heuristically trying to detect what you're doing and self-limiting in response. How is that equivalent to features just being literally off? There's no special "mine-crypto" instruction in the CUDA ISA. > there have been…

The 3060 has been out for a few months now, and it has the limiter. Re: your edit about noticing, I strongly disagree. Tech reviewers would LOVE to run the “limiter cripples Blender/Tensorflow/whatever” story, but that hasn’t happened. And in this market users are generally taking what they can get, so I’ve seen lots of people who would normally run 70/80/90s running 60s instead.

The existing limiter doesn't work, though. It was narrowly focused and consequently easy for miners to work around. That's why they're making this new version. There is no precise test for whether a given workload is "mining", though, so we can expect more false positives to show up as Nvidia tries to close off the myriad ways to avoid detection and miners respond by making their computation look more like traditional gaming workloads.
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