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Fierce Nerds

paulgraham.com

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Re: Fierce Nerds

#391

Post by lostlogin »

ping_pong wrote: post #336
lostlogin wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Will you be clever at the expense of others, or will you be kind?" -Jeff Bezos That an interesting read, thanks. I struggle to square what Bezos is saying with what Amazon has become. He is clearly incredibly clever but appears devoid of any kindness toward his low level employees. Am I missing something?

Are you only believing what you read in the media or do you know people that actually work at Amazon? The fact that Amazon employees in a warehouse rejected unionization speaks volumes. And I know plenty of Amazon engineers that love working there. To put it in perspective, there may be employees that hate working at Amazon, but there are also 100,000 employees. If only 10% of the employees hated working there, that'…

> Are you only believing what you read in the media or do you know people that actually work at Amazon?

I’ve talked with people who work there as engineers. I haven’t any friends there.

The engineers seem well looked after, but engineers are not what I’d describe as ‘low level employees’.

I’m not sure that rejection of unionisation says as much as you are attributing to it and if reports are to believe, Amazon used a few dirty tricks.

Likely both sides did, but there is plenty to suggest that Amazon isn’t a kind or benevolent employer.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#392

Post by wizzwizz4 »

fungiblecog wrote: post #376

I think the problem with Paul Graham's writing is that it always comes down to talking about getting rich. A lot of people - including very intelligent people - have other things they'd rather do than play such a stupid game. Unfortunately the world is pushing everyone in that direction which will create a lot of bitterness because most people necessarily lose that game.

I still fail to understand how we've organised society so that the losers of a particular game don't eat. It's virtually decoupled from helping other people with stuff (which is what the economy purports to represent); you have old money, and nth-generation new money, and people working two jobs to afford rent.

“Invest” in the stock market in X way, and you can stop working earlier – that is, if you had enough savings to do so.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#393

Post by coldtea »

>There's also a natural connection between nerdiness and independent-mindedness.

Is it, or it's just an anecdotal projection from PGs own experience ("I'm nerdy and I consider myself independently minded, also know a few others like that").

This is just extrapolating from the diminishingly small number of nerds who are also SV entrepreneurs.

But historically nerds (e.g. 50s and 60s "propellerheads") were just working for companies and research labs as employees, and mostly on what they were told. Most still do exactly that.

Socially also many nerds otherwise follow the herd and "try to belong" with the "cool people" (often in vain).

Re: Fierce Nerds

#394

Post by mycologos »

watwut wrote: post #134
mycologos wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, pedantry is a form of competitiveness, and all of these activities seem to foster pedantry (e.g. "that's not part of this canon!").

That way everything is competitive. Pedantry does not have to be competitive at all.

I think pedantry is often a way of asserting status ("I know this thing, you don't"), though I agree it doesn't intrinsically have to be.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#395

Post by solipsism »

greyhair wrote: post #347

I worked with a number of brilliant people at Bell Labs through the 1980s/1990s. The most comfortably competent among them, the most productive among them, were also the least abrasive. They were also the most self deprecating. Not just one or two, but the majority of them. To the point that the aggressive geniuses stood out. And I worked for/with two abrasive ones as well, so I know the difference. The same was true…

Yeah, it's remarkable to me that this article could be written to provide advice to "fierce nerds", and not include a single sentence about not being an asshole.

I work with "fierce nerds". Some of them are self-aware, and try very very hard not to be assholes to the people around them. They do this without sacrificing their passion. And they are tolerable to work with only because they consciously push back against their inner asshole.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#396

Post by ptr2voidStar »

tomcam wrote: post #378
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favourite people to work with are the gentle geniuses. I love to be wrong around them because I get to learn, and I love opportunities to present something useful I've done and know it will become a valuable contribution. I avoid the other kind of person like a plague now. They ruin otherwise excellent teams. They might be fine to have a drink with or something, but in day to day work, they are sand paper. Another…

I know, right? It is one of the greatest things in the world to be the dumbest guy in a room full of really smart, secure people. It’s like you’re getting a mini postdoc education for free, compressed into a few minutes.

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who relishes being the "least smart" in a room full of geniuses.

No ego here, I just absorb, absorb and absorb!

Re: Fierce Nerds

#398

Post by abnry »

ryandrake wrote: post #198
sangnoir wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think PG is trying to justify some kind of assholish behaviour in his past by reframing it as a virtue. I couldn't help but read part of it as a response to/rationalization of the recent pushback he (and other "fierce nerds") have been receiving lately...the former underdogs are now the establishment. The bad news is that if it's not exercised, your fierceness will turn to bitterness, and you will become an intel…

I think "shooter down of new ideas" is getting unfairly lumped in with those other actually-bad traits. If there's one thing a lot of "idea guys" and optimistic entrepreneurs tend to lack and need, it's a skeptical partner who keeps them grounded in reality. Someone who is experienced, seen it all, constructively critical. Someone who will say "Wait a minute, this was tried in the '80s, and it won't work. Maybe try t…

Yes, it is true that new ideas need criticism. However, if one is almost always critical of new ideas, especially ones that push beyond your wheelhouse, then that is a problem because you'll never innovate. PG lumps it with haters and trolls because that's what being a negative person entails. The point is the extremity. There is nothing wrong with being a hater, proportionately, as you can only love something if you hate its opposite.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#399

Post by sidlls »

dang wrote: post #211
ziggus wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...a ton of my time is wasted by processes, norms and ideologies." So, all the stuff that helps society function?

" Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There are plenty of people in the tech industry who abhor any process, norm, or ideology (most often, especially if it’s not one they created). I don’t think it’s uncharitable to simply take the comment at its word, and adding an implied “excess,” “unnecessary,” or whatever constructs a different—and more ambiguous—argument to comment on.

Re: Fierce Nerds

#400

Post by sharker8 »

HeyImAlex wrote: post #78
helen___keller wrote: post #21

I enjoy reading Paul Graham's musings on nerds / nerdiness, but I can't help but have difficulty relating. Maybe it's a generational thing (born in '92), but Graham often seems to paint a picture of nerds similar to what you might see in movies and TV shows depicting the 80s, like the kids in Stranger Things. Even this article, while I can certainly conjure which of my friends growing up were the "fierce nerd", it st…

Same, born in 92 and his characterization of being nerdy and young seems super antiquated. “Nerdy” interests don’t make you a social pariah, they transcend groupings all together; the star quarterback plays dnd, the head cheerleader builds robots in her basement, the stigma on having unique or “nerdy” hobbies and interests is mostly gone. When I think of what PG is describing, it’s characterized by poor social skills…

If there are star QBs that play DND (somehow I doubt there actually are that many) this is just proof that DND has gone mainstream and is therefore being commercialized as nerdy while actually not nerdy any more. This is known in some parlances as 'nerd-chic'.
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