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Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

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Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#61

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #59
seba_dos1 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, basically your point is that saying "don't care" about "unwritten gentlemanly rules" is an indicator of one's intelligence. I'm pretty sure that it certainly is an indicator of several personality traits, but it doesn't tell you anything about being "smart".

If everyone is just mistakenly assuming that these rules are important or were ever really rules at all... and you're the sole person to realise that actually these were never rules all along and you don't need to follow them... then yeah I think that's a really smart insight to make. Challenging assumptions, thinking outside of constraints, re-assessing the foundations of the way we do things, redefining what is pos…

Thanks, I understand now. There is a grocery store near me which has a spot that seems poorly covered by security cameras. So far I thought that I shouldn't just grab things from there into my pockets and leave without paying, but I see now that it wasn't smart - I don't need to follow these rules.

BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#62

Post by gregjor »

jart wrote: post #60
gregjor wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No medical literature says I or anyone else is incapable of dancing or orthography. A statistical average of autistics showing this or that impairment over a large sample says nothing about individuals. You should read the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorders, which includes what is called Asperger’s. Here it is in case you don’t have the DSM-5 handy: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html A pers…

I was going off the primary materials. It's pretty clear that you won't believe that being diagnosed with a disability (well, according to ada, or whichever word you feel most appropriate) means you can't dance and write wedding cards the same way other people do. Have you considered simply challenging the definition? Instead of all this big picture epistemology? You can change the culture so that dance for example i…

If I felt disabled or excluded I would take dance lessons or learn calligraphy, like “other” people do. I’m not incapable, just not interested. That isn’t a medical condition. I’m not interested in quixotic attempts to change the culture.

A diagnosis of something so vague and variable as ASD doesn’t imply specific disabilities, or an inability to adapt and overcome. It’s an artificial label, not an identity.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#63

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #61
chrisseaton wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone is just mistakenly assuming that these rules are important or were ever really rules at all... and you're the sole person to realise that actually these were never rules all along and you don't need to follow them... then yeah I think that's a really smart insight to make. Challenging assumptions, thinking outside of constraints, re-assessing the foundations of the way we do things, redefining what is pos…

Thanks, I understand now. There is a grocery store near me which has a spot that seems poorly covered by security cameras. So far I thought that I shouldn't just grab things from there into my pockets and leave without paying, but I see now that it wasn't smart - I don't need to follow these rules. BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

> Thanks, I understand now.

I don't think you do. You've just made a moral point. But we're talking about how smart people are, not how moral they are.

It could be very smart to find a way to steal something. That doesn't make it moral to do so.

> BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

But again, that's moral not smart.

See if you can rephrase your point without any reference to morals, and I think you'll see where you're confused.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#64

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #63
seba_dos1 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I understand now. There is a grocery store near me which has a spot that seems poorly covered by security cameras. So far I thought that I shouldn't just grab things from there into my pockets and leave without paying, but I see now that it wasn't smart - I don't need to follow these rules. BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work?

> Thanks, I understand now. I don't think you do. You've just made a moral point. But we're talking about how smart people are, not how moral they are. It could be very smart to find a way to steal something. That doesn't make it moral to do so. > BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work? But again, that's moral not smart . See if you can rephrase your point without any refer…

I haven't even referenced morality at all. I just applied your own definition of "smart", no more no less.

Just taking things because nobody's looking is not "smart" regardless of its morality, of course. Even if you were doing it to steal from the rich and feed the poor, there's nothing smart in it, even when it's successful. You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. Just like you don't need exceptional intelligence to build your political capital on xenophobia. That's just dumb brute force, not smartness. Everyone knows you can do that if you're willing to get dirty enough, it worked many times in the past already. What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics, as that would require much more wit to pull off.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#65

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #64
chrisseaton wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thanks, I understand now. I don't think you do. You've just made a moral point. But we're talking about how smart people are, not how moral they are. It could be very smart to find a way to steal something. That doesn't make it moral to do so. > BTW. Did you even notice that you just compared Trump's campaign to Galileo's work? But again, that's moral not smart . See if you can rephrase your point without any refer…

I haven't even referenced morality at all. I just applied your own definition of "smart", no more no less. Just taking things because nobody's looking is not "smart" regardless of its morality, of course. Even if you were doing it to steal from the rich and feed the poor, there's nothing smart in it, even when it's successful. You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. Just like you don't need exceptional in…

> You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that.

You need the intelligence to see which rules really impact you and which don't. That requires insight.

> What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics

Often being 'lazy' is the smart thing to do. Why do extra work that you don't need to do?

What's why I think you're confusing it with morality. You're saying it's better to do it without being lazy... but why? If being lazy gets you the same or better result, then surely it's the smart thing to do?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#66

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #65
seba_dos1 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't even referenced morality at all. I just applied your own definition of "smart", no more no less. Just taking things because nobody's looking is not "smart" regardless of its morality, of course. Even if you were doing it to steal from the rich and feed the poor, there's nothing smart in it, even when it's successful. You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. Just like you don't need exceptional in…

> You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. You need the intelligence to see which rules really impact you and which don't. That requires insight. > What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics Often being 'lazy' is the smart thing to do. Why do extra work that you don't need to do? What's why I think you're confusing it with morality. You…

> Why do extra work that you don't need to do?

Because of the consequences.

Tesla had used customer-grade components for control & entertainment systems in their cars. Nobody else did that, what a smart thing to do! They recognized that there's a rule to break to cut costs!

...unfortunately, the customer-grade touchscreen panels in their cars were breaking so often for exactly the reasons why you don't use them in cars and go for more expensive and harder to obtain industrial-grade components instead that they were fined and forced to recall whole production runs.

Now, if you actually did figure out a thing that nobody did before in order to put less work or cut costs and achieve the same or better results - you'd be indeed smart. Neither Trump's campaign nor Tesla's use of customer-grade electronics were examples of that. They just did something that others did not because of other factors than their intelligence.

Some rules are there for a reason and breaking them does not make you smart.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#67

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #66
chrisseaton wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need exceptional intelligence to do that. You need the intelligence to see which rules really impact you and which don't. That requires insight. > What could be smart is to successfully build that same capital without resorting to such lazy and harmful tactics Often being 'lazy' is the smart thing to do. Why do extra work that you don't need to do? What's why I think you're confusing it with morality. You…

> Why do extra work that you don't need to do? Because of the consequences. Tesla had used customer-grade components for control & entertainment systems in their cars. Nobody else did that, what a smart thing to do! They recognized that there's a rule to break to cut costs! ...unfortunately, the customer-grade touchscreen panels in their cars were breaking so often for exactly the reasons why you don't use them in ca…

> Because of the consequences.

The smart thing was to realise that in fact there were no consequences to breaking some rules.

> Some rules are there for a reason

And others are not. Telling the difference requires you to be... smart.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#68

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #67
seba_dos1 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do extra work that you don't need to do? Because of the consequences. Tesla had used customer-grade components for control & entertainment systems in their cars. Nobody else did that, what a smart thing to do! They recognized that there's a rule to break to cut costs! ...unfortunately, the customer-grade touchscreen panels in their cars were breaking so often for exactly the reasons why you don't use them in ca…

> Because of the consequences. The smart thing was to realise that in fact there were no consequences to breaking some rules. > Some rules are there for a reason And others are not. Telling the difference requires you to be... smart.

> Telling the difference requires you to be... smart.

...which is exactly my point of why your examples of "smart" fall short ;)

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