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Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

blog.ethereum.org

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Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#801

Post by crazypython »

kipchak wrote: post #138
michael_vo wrote: post #32

What are the attack vectors on PoS. With PoW you need 51% of the mining power to take over the system, which is very labor intensive to set up. With PoS could you take over all coins by buying 51% of the existing coins? So if the market cap of ETH is 200BB spend 100BB to double your money?

The market cap will also increase as you buy loads of coins. For example if I went on coinbase pro, there are people willing to sell up to 50,000 ETH at a maximum price of $6,000, or a total cost of $220,000 million. Of course Coinbase isn't the only market, but if it was and I bought that 220,000 million dollars of ETH the market cap would now be around 700B, at least temporarily. My guess would be at some point peo…

You don't need to buy, you can just get a coalition of people who already own 51% and ask them to do the attack.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#802

Post by jude- »

vmception wrote: post #652
nextaccountic wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Members earn 6% dividends for the last 100 years, and this was to entice them to join the system at all. Can you tell more about this? Specially the "and this was to entice them to join the system at all." part.

The Federal Reserve Act from 1913 incentivizes banks to join the Federal Reserve payments network. Let me update this to 2020s lingo: The Federal Reserve System is a decentralized autonomous organization (DAO) that pays its stakers 6% annually. It has operated for over 100 years flawlessly. The stakers gain access to a market leading depository and credit system, and have the ability to voice opinions on some variabl…

There's a big difference: the Federal Reserve System lives in the real world, where node misbehavior (i.e. officers doing bad things) is punished with jail time, with ruinous downstream consequences on their families.

Wake me up when The DAO hacker is caught and put in jail, and I'll re-consider the analogy.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#803

Post by andrewzah »

DickingAround wrote: post #726
simias wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like cryptocurrencies achieved any of their goals so far anyway. If it's about facilitating pyramid schemes and creating a worldwide casino we might as well do it efficiently and without wasting insane amounts of resources. I'm personally very happy for PoS and hope that it'll be successful, I would be a lot less annoyed with cryptocurrency bullshit if it wasn't so wasteful. With proof-of-stakes it basically…

What do you mean? We totally got what we wanted; we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. I'm 100% serious here; it's been working fine for quite a number of years. The fiat conversion is pretty noisy but BTC on average goes up in value in fiat terms at a fast pace. BTC is easy to turn it into stuff. No one has ever censored my transactions or asked for ID. Even if you buy something really exp…

"or asked for ID"

That ship sailed long ago in the US if you use any exchange. Not using an ID is much, much harder now. And is kind of besides the point with a public ledger.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#804

Post by sudosysgen »

Yizahi wrote: post #696
pkdpic_y9k wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But like, what were cryptocurrency's goals again?

Originally anarchist anti-government folks needed some medium of exchange for their future plans and bitcoins could theoretically fill that niche, being trustless. We could argue that anarchy ideology is not good, but at least it was some ideology and tool fit the purpose. Now crypto is 99.99% occupied by get-rich-quick folks with zero principles.

Not anarchists, ancaps and right libertarians.

Crypto-currency has inbuilt hierarchy, as people with more hashrate have proportional power over the monetary system. This is more hierarchy than an elected chairman of the fed, for example.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#805

Post by grubles »

dahfizz wrote: post #670
fredfoobar wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a whole book written about the history of this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57429394-the-blocksize-w... "Roughly 90% of the hash power once threatened to change the rules of #Bitcoin believing the users didn’t matter in the decision. The users spun up 10s of thousands of full nodes & told them to go f*ck themselves." [1] [1] https://twitter.com/TheCryptoconomy/status/13940065488763084...

Why wouldn't a similar "takeover" be possible in a PoS system? You really haven't addressed the parent's point.

You can do much worse things in a PoS system since power in the system is tied to the asset (ETH). Ethereum DeFi toys are hacked on a daily basis and millions upon millions of dollars worth of ETH is stolen.

It's exactly why the DAO hacker was censored -- they controlled more ETH than any single account in the system.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#806

Post by miohtama »

pkdpic_y9k wrote: post #675
simias wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like cryptocurrencies achieved any of their goals so far anyway. If it's about facilitating pyramid schemes and creating a worldwide casino we might as well do it efficiently and without wasting insane amounts of resources. I'm personally very happy for PoS and hope that it'll be successful, I would be a lot less annoyed with cryptocurrency bullshit if it wasn't so wasteful. With proof-of-stakes it basically…

But like, what were cryptocurrency's goals again?

The goals can be technological, cultural and macroeconomic ones. I had a presentation recently on this topic:

https://capitalgram.com/posts/history-of-cryptocurrencies/

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#807

Post by miohtama »

chrischattin wrote: post #742
vbuterin wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating _consensus_ and _governance_; the two are quite different. It's not PoW vs PoS that allows a chain to resist a coordinated attempt by elites to force a protocol change, it's users personally verifying the chain (and so automatically rejecting chains that violate the rules even if >51% of PoW/PoS nodes support those chains). So no, PoS is not "how our current financial system works". Our curr…

In Ethereum, you need 32 ETH, which is around ~$120k. That's prohibitive a normal person. After EIP1559 goes into effect, it's not out of the question that the price could rise 7x given the power laws at play. What happens when the cost to stake a node is $1M+? What happens 50 years from only the very richest .00001% can afford to run a node? I'm concerned EIP1559 and PoS is a very short sighted implementation that w…

You can do pooled staking with smaller amounts, with little bit lost security:

https://capitalgram.com/posts/ethereum-2.0-staking-and-stake...

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#808

Post by grubles »

klyrs wrote: post #757
DickingAround wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? We totally got what we wanted; we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. I'm 100% serious here; it's been working fine for quite a number of years. The fiat conversion is pretty noisy but BTC on average goes up in value in fiat terms at a fast pace. BTC is easy to turn it into stuff. No one has ever censored my transactions or asked for ID. Even if you buy something really exp…

Transaction fees were north of $50 a couple of weeks ago. Who's buying a pizza with that overhead? Genuinely asking, because I've a bridge to sell Before the edit window closes... 5 workarounds and counting. Are they interoperable, or is all this a thick layer of bullshit that users need to wade through to spend their "currency"? I see the plurality of "solutions" here indicative of a problem. Yes, you can fix anythi…

You can use Lightning (a Bitcoin technology) to send BTC which is extremely cheap in comparison. Talking fractions of a cent.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#809

Post by miohtama »

tylercubell wrote: post #525

Algorand has been Proof of Stake for years (2019 MainNet launch) and it's actually carbon-negative [1]. It's a shame more people don't know about it. Its founder is a Turing-award-winning MIT professor (Silvio Micali) who solved the blockchain trilemma [2] with the Pure Proof of Stake consensus algorithm. The tech is leaps and bounds ahead of other cryptos. [1]: https://www.algorand.com/resources/news/carbon_negative…

The first proof-of-stake coin was PeerCoin from 2012. Also Algorand is not leaps ahead of the competiton. More in my presentation:

https://capitalgram.com/posts/history-of-cryptocurrencies/

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#810

Post by miohtama »

sva_ wrote: post #277

The minimum amount of Ether to be eligible to stake is 32 Coins, so it appears that last year in June, about 120k addresses would've met that criterion[0]. That probably changed by now, I'd assume the number to be higher as more people set up 'mining rigs'. That's at least a larger number than I would've guessed. I wonder how many people/entities are behind those addresses. On a side note, I have mixed feelings about…

You can do pooled staking with small additional risks:

https://capitalgram.com/posts/ethereum-2.0-staking-and-stake...

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