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Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

blog.ethereum.org

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Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#651
post #311

Your post advocates a (X) technical ( ) legislative (X) market-based ( ) vigilante approach to solving the double-spend problem in a decentralized cryptocurrency. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from state to state before a bad federal law was passed.) (X) Scammers can easily use it to d…

[deleted]

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, the US Federal Reserve is a Proof of Stake system. Members earn 6% dividends for the last 100 years, and this was to entice them to join the system at all. Just pointing out that the idea of an omnipotent US government is a fairly new concept, and it must incentivize and entice people to join its payment network as opposed to other private ones. The private networks for final settlement are becoming more int…

> Members earn 6% dividends for the last 100 years, and this was to entice them to join the system at all. Can you tell more about this? Specially the "and this was to entice them to join the system at all." part.

The Federal Reserve Act from 1913 incentivizes banks to join the Federal Reserve payments network. Let me update this to 2020s lingo: The Federal Reserve System is a decentralized autonomous organization (DAO) that pays its stakers 6% annually. It has operated for over 100 years flawlessly. The stakers gain access to a market leading depository and credit system, and have the ability to voice opinions on some variables but the shares itself are non-voting. Like many kinds of entities such as trusts and foundations, there are no owners, only trustees.

The human interface to the system is a separate public agency called the Board of Governors, which simply tells the public what the Federal Reserve has done, and also communicates any changes to the Federal Reserve's charter (any legislative updates) to the DAO.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#653
proof of work is a massive waste, it's true, but it does serve a one time valuable purpose: it bootstraps the value of the tokens by having people make real investments with existing currency and hardware in their creation. beyond that, it's literally insane, it only works when there's a very competitive race to burn as much energy as possible.

however, once the value of those tokens is established (as is true for most of the big cryptocurrencies today), there is really no compelling reason not to emulate the proof of work block lottery with a proof of stake block lottery. there is absolutely no reason why people can't lock up digital currency funds long term in exchange for share in a 10 minute lottery rather than lock up funds in hardware mining investments and associated power supplies for them.

i've been watching ethereum's progress on this with interest, and fully expect with time that bitcoin will follow.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#654

I was fairly into the space in 2014-2016 but stopped paying attention the last few years. It seems like lots of theorized applications actually exist and have a proof-of-concept now. If I’m building a marketplace business in 2021, where I want to be “crypto-first” instead of relying on PayPal and Stripe Connect, where do I start? The marketplace sells access to resources with an off-chain ACL system. It facilitates t…

This is a great solution called zk-rollup (zero knowledge rollup) https://zksync.io/ It is just as secure as the base chain (unlike polygon) and has low fees and has been live for the past few months. This is a perfect solution to simple payments. The difference between optimistic rollups and zero knowledge rollups is that you can’t deploy arbitrary smart contracts to zk rollup, it only supports a limited set of use…

What coin does zk-rollup use? or just base Ethereum?

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#655

Proof of Stake is already how our current financial system works. The people with the most money make the decisions. Proof-of-Work is provably resistant to this, as evidenced by the 2017 blocksize debate where almost every large miner and bitcoin company wanted to change the protocol and it was fought off through grassroots efforts. A PoS currency will be controlled by a cabal of US financial institutions, and indire…

I wish we could have proof of work but the work would be something like , doing an actual workout.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controlling the mining doesn't allow you to control much about how transactions work.

The network majority decides everything, including how transactions work, how many coins there are, what the block size is... The prospect that there's only ever going to be 21 million Bitcoin is ensured by nothing except majority opinion. It's not inconceivable that this will be relaxed in the future and Bitcoin will have a "Bitcoin Classic" fork where old rules are enforced. This could happen if, for instance, tran…

Not quite -- the 21 million (or more accurately, 2.1 Quadrillion sat) is a hard line. Any coin not enforcing this rule is not bitcoin. There of course will be forks that dont, but they are not bitcoin.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#657
post #325

This article comes from the Ethereum blog, can anyone verify the numbers or provide an unbiased view?

The numbers that they are providing are pretty reasonable and nobody is really disputing that removing the mining requirement and just staking your Ethereum is enormously more efficient. Even if you assume each staker is running 1 server, then 140k computers NOT running at full tilt all the time is still a tiny consumer of electricity compared to the current situation.

A lot of the debate seems to be around whether or not it's as secure or viable, or whether the existing Ethereum miners will try to stage a coup or something.

Disclaimer: I don't hold cryptocurrency and I think proof-of-work cryptocurrencies are a tragic waste.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#658
post #585

Proof of Stake is already how our current financial system works. The people with the most money make the decisions. Proof-of-Work is provably resistant to this, as evidenced by the 2017 blocksize debate where almost every large miner and bitcoin company wanted to change the protocol and it was fought off through grassroots efforts. A PoS currency will be controlled by a cabal of US financial institutions, and indire…

I am not convinced that PoW is immune to those pressures or even resistant to it. The people with capital control the mining. At least the environmental problems are reduced with PoS

There's a couple of misunderstandings here.

Mining is expensive and low margin. Generally, the people who own the most Bitcoins are not the same as the people with the most mining rigs, the two parties tend to be completely divorced, and the miners tend to be strongly incentivized around not rocking the boat (for better or worse).

The other misunderstanding is that mining doesn't shape the protocol. The users shape the protocol, and can run any validation software they want. No user has to accept a block by a miner, and every block made by a miner has to conform to the protocol's rules.

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#659

Algorand has been Proof of Stake for years (2019 MainNet launch) and it's actually carbon-negative [1]. It's a shame more people don't know about it. Its founder is a Turing-award-winning MIT professor (Silvio Micali) who solved the blockchain trilemma [2] with the Pure Proof of Stake consensus algorithm. The tech is leaps and bounds ahead of other cryptos. [1]: https://www.algorand.com/resources/news/carbon_negative…

I just read about it. It seems highly susceptible to disruption by a minority stake, via the birthday paradox.

If only a fraction of the stake holders are validators at any given time, but the set of 1000 validators is selected randomly from token holders, then all you technically need is 1000 tokens (or more) and given enough time you will be selected as the only validator, right? You can then validate a fraudulent transaction, breaking security.

Now perhaps the amount of time it would take for this to occur would be longer than the heat death of the universe if you only have 1000 tokens, but at the very least, this substantially reduces the stake required to mount such an attack below the 51% required in a PoW system, right?

Re: Ethereum will use around 99.95% less energy post merge

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controlling the mining doesn't allow you to control much about how transactions work.

The network majority decides everything, including how transactions work, how many coins there are, what the block size is... The prospect that there's only ever going to be 21 million Bitcoin is ensured by nothing except majority opinion. It's not inconceivable that this will be relaxed in the future and Bitcoin will have a "Bitcoin Classic" fork where old rules are enforced. This could happen if, for instance, tran…

Agree. Crypto currency is small and has never had to deal with major financial fallouts like 2008 mortgage debacle. The idea that the number of bitcoins can never be changed for example due to the need to respond to national or international problems is silly. Ultimately any rules are but code decided by human factors. Therefore it's not impossible that there are several forks running several crypto versions at the same time depending on what people think represents the best response. A few guys buying coffee on BC or investing in BC is one thing. Running a nation on it is a much more dynamic thing. It's for some of these reasons the US Treasury controls money supply. There are also connections between national indebtedness (treasury bonds) and money supply suggesting that enforcing rules setup up X years ago may not weather the first storm.
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