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Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

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Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bottleneck is not kwh of electricity produced, but storage. Hydrogen cards do well on that bottleneck.

If I were to store solar in my electric car as a form of temporary storage, I get probably between 80 and 90% of what was generated by my cells delivered back to my house. All I need to do this are some slight alterations to my electrical system. If I wanted to do this with my hydrogen car, I would need to get some expensive electrolysis station next to my house and I would get maybe 50% of stored energy back after e…

Tesla doesn't allow this because of the wear on the batteries, but it seems like a killer application for EVs and rooftop solar to be able to combine them like that.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but ideally they'd be swappable. Similar to propane tank exchanges. Or even how some EVs were thinking about battery swap stations.

Aren't they really heavy? This is also why swappable batteries in EVs never got off of the ground. You need a crane to do it and that's too much effort for a top-up.

I thought the tanks were much lighter than the batteries. I think they use multiple smaller tanks due to the rate of release of the hydrogen.

I don't know. I haven't done a lot of research since it will be at least another decade until a decent vehicle suiting my criteria comes out (electric or hydrogen). No point in me even looking at it now.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#293

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

> This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds.

> As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo.

> It doesn't seem like current fuels cell have much of a energy density / range advantage even though hydrogen itself is much more energy dense, the fuel cell weight and efficiency and high pressure liquid hydrogen tanks must be accounted for.

I'm curious to know how you come to this conclusion? I don't know much about aerodynamics other than at, as a first order approximation, drag is proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity. Driving 887.5 km at an average speed of 66.9 km/h is, afaict, much more impressive than driving 975 km at 40 km/h.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#294
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the appeal of a hydrogen car vs an eletric car? Fast 'charging' seems to be the big one. Also for larger engines (like trucks) you should get lower total weight compared to batteries.

Often overlooked is when you turn a hydrogen car off, it's off. Come back days or even months later and it should be exactly as you left it. On the other hand a Tesla Model 3 requires a lot of energy to stay warm in the winter - some reports from the dead of winter of it taking 2000 watts just to stay warm. Under extreme conditions you can't leave it unplugged for a week or possibly even a weekend without concern ove…

> a Tesla Model 3 requires a lot of energy to stay warm in the winter - some reports from the dead of winter of it taking 2000 watts just to stay warm. Under extreme conditions you can't leave it unplugged for a week or possibly even a weekend without concern over the battery charge and health.

If that were the case there would be a lot of dead Teslas here in Norway. And even more dead Nissan Leafs which do not have active battery temperature management.

I often leave my Model S disconnected over the weekend or longer in -15C in the winter without any noticeable effect on the battery health.

It has an effect on range of course because as you say the car does prevent the battery getting too cold. Perhaps I'll try to measure how much energy is required next winter.

Here is a first hand anecdote about using a Model S in the Arctic: https://electrek.co/2020/02/11/tesla-model-3-arctic-circle-w...

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#295
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know what is even less green? Building tens of thousands of charging ports that are not being utilized because they are used for day parking.

Care to show your math? This is 'batteries pollute the environment too" FUD all over again.

Care to stop pretending I'm arguing against EVs?

I'm very much for EVs instead of fossil cars, but the argument that you don't need fast charging because you can charge it while at work or while shopping doesn't stand.

Increasing cost of a parking space 1000 times for extra convenience is not economically feasible. The environmental implications are obious, it simply can't scale, no need to show any math (you made up your numbers first, I don't have anything to compare it to).

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#296

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the issue with hydrogen the supply chain? I believe the overwhelming majority of hydrogen is currently produced from fossil fuels. > As of 2020, the majority of hydrogen (∼95%) is produced from fossil fuels by steam reforming of natural gas, partial oxidation of methane, and coal gasification. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

How viable is it to extract from water via solar power?

Yeah, you can do electrolysis, but I don't think it's particularly efficient. I'd love to know more myself.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#297
Didn't the Gumpert Nathalie [1] already break the range record beyond 1000km?

Granted, their cars use methanol "fuel" to bind hydrogen, but the car is all electric and uses fuel cells to produce electricity.

For anyone asking whether this is legit: Gumpert was the inventor of AWD/quattro and a long time the Audi Sport engineering lead.

[1] https://www.rolandgumpert.com/en/

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#298
post #176
post #12

Since “tank” isn’t a unit of measure, I suppose anyone could trivially break the record with a larger tank. From the article: > The Nexo consumed 6.27kg of H2 For comparison with the other production H2 cars: Toyota Mirai: 5.6kg Honda Clarity: 5.0kg Seems like a promising technology. My understanding is that the current blocker is infrastructure. It’s hard to pressurize up to 10,000 PSI, so many facilities are only a…

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

The question is not whether you pay a massive efficiency penalty for storing electricity as hydrogen (obviously, yes) but whether there are applications where you are effectively buying a set of useful properties for the losses you are "spending".

For displacing existing grey hydrogen from the chemical industry, a possible reducing agent in steel making, and other high temperature industrial processes it's pretty clear that the answer will be yes.

I happen to think that it is really unlikely that the answer for cars and vans will ever be yes, even if hydrogen could be made cheaply.

Whether it will have a role in other applications depends on a few things:

First, the structure of the future electricity mix. In order to ensure that there is enough electricity at every moment, we have to do a mix of things: -"over" build variable output renewables so that the troughs in production are higher -Intra-day demand side response -Intra-day storage (almost certainly batteries) -Dispatchable renewables like hydro -Dispatchable sort-of renewables based on biomass -Dispatchable fossil fuels (with CCS) -Load-following nuclear

The reason why people think about hydrogen and other exotic technologies is that many of the technologies on that list either have limited available scope (hydro, biomass), are probably not really carbon-neutral (biomass, CCS), rely on unproven tech at scale (CCS, new nuclear designs), or have exceptionally high capital costs (any new nuclear but especially when at low load factors, CCS especially at low load factors).

So what most simulations show you're left with as a low-cost mix for most days is a combination of the first five. That still leaves you with two problems: -What do you do if the average output net of load is very different between seasons? -How do you provision for a 1:20 yr weather system without making your system vastly more expensive?

and one opportunity (which is also a challenge): -variable renewables are cheap and getting cheaper so cost-optimal generation mixes build a lot more than needed for the average day in order to keep use of expensive biomass and limited hydro capacity to a minimum. As a result, electricity has low/no marginal value a lot of the time.

Second, the future cost of electrolysers. At current capex levels, they need to be run at max load all the time and still produce expensive hydrogen. Genuinely low costs like what BNEF thinks might be possible ($100/kW) allow you to run for only 20% or less of the hours in the year and scoop all the excess electricity up.

Third, the cost of alternative solutions in the areas where hydrogen is currently being considered as this reduces the value of any hydrogen produced.

I do agree that for passenger cars it's just not going to happen.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arguments I’ve seen have specifically been about hydrogen in the context of EVs (specifically almost always as a way to dismiss EVs). - The trade-offs work in favor of EVs, hydrogen has a similar distribution problem to gasoline (fueling stations). - Hydrogen requires production somehow, electricity we already have the grid and people can charge at home - The things hydrogen is good at (lighter weight than batter…

The chicken or egg problem with charging is one of the reasons I tend to down-weight the opinions of EV owners when talking about the future of transportation. People that own EVs have to deal with the lack of supporting infrastructure, and have a vested interest in steering public opinion to go in a direction they have already personally committed. That doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong about the future, just t…

In case anyone was wondering where the Overton window was.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#300

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

Hydrogen needs to be a game changer to command a redirection of investment and effort for consumer transportation. Even if it offers 20% better range and some allegedly better refuel experience (H2 people keep handwaving that as "solved"), that wouldn't justify the gigantic infrastructure switchover cost. Electric vehicles can use the grid. That's a massive advantage for infrastructure readiness and scalability, even…

> But it's just distraction, because I think the oil industry knows that the hydrogen will come from natural gas for the foreseeable (10-40 years) with some "future switchover" to "green hydrogen".

Hydrogen was always a distraction. Fuel cells have been 10 years away from practicality since the 80s, and hydrogen production was only ever non-fossil-fuel-based in theory. It's 100% a smokescreen to protect fossil fuels.

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