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Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

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Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#241

Post by grogenaut »

_ph_ wrote: post #176
KMnO4 wrote: post #12

Since “tank” isn’t a unit of measure, I suppose anyone could trivially break the record with a larger tank. From the article: > The Nexo consumed 6.27kg of H2 For comparison with the other production H2 cars: Toyota Mirai: 5.6kg Honda Clarity: 5.0kg Seems like a promising technology. My understanding is that the current blocker is infrastructure. It’s hard to pressurize up to 10,000 PSI, so many facilities are only a…

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

I enjoy how you are taking all of the arguments people used against BEVs in favor of gas and using them against HV. The irony is strong in these threads.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#242

Post by grogenaut »

JPKab wrote: post #182
_ph_ wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

The key to a hydrogen economy will rely on creation of hydrogen in locations with extremely abundant electricity like Iceland. The next step is shipping it like it's LNG. Not a small order.

Do you mean similar to how we do the same with LNG or oil from Alaska?

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#243

Post by SigmundA »

adrian_b wrote: post #226
SigmundA wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just charge a battery with the solar panels at much greater efficiency.

For short-term storage a rechargeable battery is certainly preferable. For long-term storage, the battery auto-discharges, so the efficiency drops quickly with the storage time, until it becomes much less than for storing the energy by synthesizing some appropriate chemical compound. For storing solar energy, both short-term storage (e.g. for a day or a week), like rechargeable batteries, and long-term storage (e.g.…

Lithium self discharges at 1-2% per month, not an issue in most circumstances, not sure where it would be an issue, if it was just have a maintaining solar panel nearby.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#244

Post by Mvandenbergh »

SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

>It doesn't seem like current fuels cell have much of a energy density / range advantage even though hydrogen itself is much more energy dense, the fuel cell weight and efficiency and high pressure liquid hydrogen tanks must be accounted for.

Hydrogen has a better gravimetric scaling than batteries - as stored energy increases, the fixed weight of the fuel cell is amortised over more energy and the weight of high pressure tanks goes up with their surface area while the energy stores goes up with volume.

So for applications where you want to store a lot of energy and are weight but not volume limited, hydrogen might make enough sense to pay the efficiency penalty required to turn electricity into hydrogen and back again.

That's why it makes more sense for big trucks than it does for passenger cars where volume limitations matter a lot more and where total energy is less.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#245

Post by labcomputer »

vardump wrote: post #91
bildung wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this underestimates the massive infrastructure investments those charging poles would need to work. I live in a medium density European town (about 1000 inhabitants/km2, think 4-5 story buildings on average). In residential areas the whole street is lined with parked cars on both sides. To charge these, one would need something like 1MW charging per every 4 cars, which means every 20m of the road, on both sid…

> To charge these, one would need something like 1MW charging per every 4 cars, which means every 20m of the road, on both sides. I think your numbers are off by at least two orders of magnitude. Let's say an average BEV travels 20000 miles per year and that it consumes 400 Wh/mile. Traveling 20k miles per year takes about 21 days assuming 40 mph average speed. If we assume the car is charging the rest of the time, a…

The plural of anecdote isn't data and all that, but:

My personal experience of driving electric cars for many years is that home charging from a Level-1 (120V, 8A ~= 1kW) plug is completely sufficient for all of my in-town driving needs.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#246

Post by darksaints »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #237
xiphias2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen makes much more sense for container ships, where electric batteries can't be made practical, but hydrogen storage can be scaled easily.

Ammonia is a better fit for marine applications, as it doesn't require high pressure or cryo storage. It can also be produced using renewable energy, and is cheaper to transport. One of the largest producers in the world (CF Industries in Louisiana) has committed to producing it using offshore wind, and renewables in general (and their terminals are located in geographic areas where there is already high penetration…

Cryo/pressurized storage isn't technically necessary for ships either. Liquid hydrogen with insulated storage works well enough. The key is evaporation rates. As long as the ship consumes fuel faster than it evaporates, there is no need to maintain pressurization.

In practice, some buffering pressurization may be necessary, but the scale of pressurization needs will be a lot lower than is required to store hydrogen long term.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#247

Post by olivermarks »

_ph_ wrote: post #204
JPKab wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key to a hydrogen economy will rely on creation of hydrogen in locations with extremely abundant electricity like Iceland. The next step is shipping it like it's LNG. Not a small order.

Yes, those locations will play a huge role in securing the global energy supply. However, the hydrogen will be desperately needed in the industry (e.g. steel production) and for supporting the electric grid in times of both low wind and solar. No good reason to waste it around the year driving cars.

My understanding is that hydrogen may be most useful for heavy good vehicles rather than cars. EVs could be great for short range urban delivery vans etc but long haul infrastructure may be built around hydrogen if the supply chain is viable.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#248

Post by _gtly »

trutannus wrote: post #84
MattRix wrote: post #16

What is the appeal of a hydrogen car vs an eletric car? The range appears to be similar, but being able to charge at home is so much more convenient.

Same question from me also. Also, hydrogen is highly explosive, so how can that be safely used in cars without detonating a la Hindenburg whenever there's a collision?

The danger of using hydrogen gas in a vehicle may be on the same order as compressed natural gas (CNG) which is used for e.g.: some busses. Hydrogen is stored under very high pressure in tanks, which if ruptured in an accident can cause a physical explosion.

A study on CNG in busses says: "One can therefore conclude that CNG buses are more prone to fire fatality risk by 2.5 times that of diesel buses, with the bus passengers being more at risk by over two orders of magnitude."

source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15876211/#:~:text=One%20can%....

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#249

Post by labcomputer »

dagw wrote: post #145
bdamm wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn’t that much of a value proposition. Modern EVs do fast charging pretty well. Given that it takes on the order of 10 minutes to pull off a freeway, navigate a traffic light or two, select a pump, pay, use the restroom, grab a snack from the store, and then navigate another intersection to get back on the freeway, adding 5 more minutes to that time to make it a fast charging stop is not really a big deal.

Can modern EVs really fast charge in only 8-10 minutes? I thought we where still talking on the order of 30+ minutes.

Put in your favorite road trip, vehicle and any advanced settings you'd like to adjust: https://abetterrouteplanner.com

(No affiliation, just a happy user)

Taking a Tesla Model 3 for example, I typically get a 15-20 minute stop every 2-3 hours (standard or long range trim).

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#250

Post by hydrogtehd »

baybal2 wrote: post #166
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10,000PSI hydraulics are rapidly becoming cookie cutter commodity parts. Once you have the supply chain for all the little crap that nickles and dimes you the rest is a lot cheaper. Having industry expertise at working at those pressures really has a huge multiplier effect on everything else. Building a system to plumb stuff from A to B at a pressure nobody uses is expensive. Calling up a sales rep and asking for sli…

How many people would be ready to drive a hydrogen bomb?

“Hydrogen bomb” is a little exaggerated. But to your detractors:

“More than a gasoline bomb, hopefully. Gasoline is more dangerous.”

Citation needed. How is gasoline more dangerous? While gasoline is very dangerous, gasoline is a liquid and will not burn until vaporized; Gasoline is dangerous because it vaporizes quickly. H2 is already a gas and has a ridiculously low spark energy. Furthermore H2 is under pressure.

Gas does have a lower auto-ignition T than H2, that’s no fun, but overall H2 scores worse than gasoline.

“Do you ride on a CNG city bus?”

CNG stands for Compressed Natural Gas; i.e. methane. Methane is a lot easier and safer to use than H2 because it:

- Packs a lot more energy vs. P so the tanks don’t have to be as strong - Doesn’t embrittle the container - Much higher spark energy (in fact, CH4 is kinda hard to light) - Smaller flammability range (i.e. mixture with air that will ignite) - lower auto-ignition T

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammability_limit

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