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Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

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Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#51

I don't understand why the US just doesn't make these companies pay the tax instead of trying to get some global minimum tax agreement. If Uber wants to operate in the US. Force them to pay otherwise ban them from operating in the US. Done.

The question is how much tax they should pay. To be fair and avoid double taxation, you'd roughly want to tax revenue in the US minus costs made to create that revenue. That quickly devolves into an endless fight to define exactly what contributes to US revenue, and which costs are made to create the US revenue.

It's easier to workaround that endless fight by ensuring that it doesn't matter where tax is paid.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#52
post #46
post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

Which movie was that when someone wanted to arrest a guy in Curaçao and the local police was like: "No no! Can't do it front of the bank! It will scare off other clients"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1fiM1NkpeM ?

edit: ah I misread your comment.

I googled 'bbc documentary cayman islands bank security guard' to try to find a documentary I saw a while ago. I found it, it's called 'Britain's Trillion Pound Island: Inside Cayman' which follows a guy who is trying to go inside a building in the Caymans that houses these infamous letterbox companies.

Jacques Peretti standing outside Ugland house: "Obama got it wrong: there are nearly 20,000 companies in there [not 12,000]":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=889jVIIz2L4&t=1342s

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im dutch too and im super frustrated about this. I don't care about paying taxes (I've done so for the last 20+ years) even if they go as high as 52%. But it really irritates me that: - other companies with this tax deals pay almost nothing - its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

Is the Netherlands in any way culpable in this - do they go the extra mile to help facilitate the evasion? My layman understanding of the tax evasion schemes is that there's nothing special about Ireland or the Netherlands. They're chosen due to other factors, like English proficiency, stable and well known legal framework - but the essence of the schemes could be done in nearly any western country.

No, there re absolutely special features of Netherlands and Ireland.

Ireland specifically had a tax setup that allowed the creation of a "virtual" European Headquarters that was not in any tax jurisdiction that sales could be booked against.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#54
post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

Im dutch too and im super frustrated about this. I don't care about paying taxes (I've done so for the last 20+ years) even if they go as high as 52%. But it really irritates me that: - other companies with this tax deals pay almost nothing - its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

The same thing is happening in _all_ countries.

I'm from Scandinavia, and plenty of large US corporations pay zero taxes because of very complex arrangements. Regular people with smaller companies have to pay high taxes though.

It's called soft imperialism. The US / Transnational empire forces all countries to "open their markets", either via direct war, og in allied states, via soft power.

Then various firms like McKinsey or Goldman working more or less as extensions of the CIA sets up shops to takeover markets and siphon money from local markets towards a tiny US / Transnational elite.

It's a system that promotes "free markets" but is actually just rule by the VHNWI's.

In Europe in particular this power grab came especially after the clauses in the Marshal Plan that helped rebuild western europe after WW2, but in effect making them vassal states to the US.

So there is no "choice" here, that's why even in the richest northern European states american corporations pay zero taxes.

It's not just a US empire problem though - after a certain size companies just become above the law, just as with private equity for individuals, when a company can hire someone like Ernst & Young, Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers etc. they can essentially just avoid taxes.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#55

I don't understand why the US just doesn't make these companies pay the tax instead of trying to get some global minimum tax agreement. If Uber wants to operate in the US. Force them to pay otherwise ban them from operating in the US. Done.

What exactly should they pay tax on?

AFAIK, most countries like the US go for a tax on profits, but profits of a multinational country are extremely hard to "locate", as in: in which country was the profit made?

Some obvious examples are IKEA stores licensing the rights to the IKEA brand from some company in the Netherlands, which means most stores in the US almost have no profits. Or starbucks USA buying extremely expensive (but high quality they say) beans from a company in Switserland... which is also part of the multi-national Starbucks holding.

These are obvious examples, but it is almost inherently hard to define where profits are made for a multi-national company as they almost always have revenue streams going in many directions and who says which national company is really adding value while others are almost profitless?

Otoh a revenue based system would also be rather hard to manage, especially if you want to prevent double taxation (both countries in the equation taxing the same revenue) as that almost requires profit based taxation again.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#56
post #13

Shell (the oil company) is actually named Royal Dutch Shell. For a moment I was confused by the title. According to wikipedia it is really named after sea shells.

I was very confused by the title. I was wondering if Uber was doing some sort of tax avoidance deal involving gasoline or something.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#57
post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

The US has ensured it gets its own share of the pie with jurisdictions like Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona and Delaware. The OECD offshore grey/black list is just a farce that ensured dark money moved from the traditional "Hollywood-jurisdictions" like Switzerland, Vanuatu and Cayman to places that are considered "clean".

Here is an excerpt from Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men Who Stole the World[1]

> American corporations could cook up a version of what was known as a “Dutch Sandwich”—set up an offshore finance subsidiary in the Netherlands Antilles, then use it to issue tax-free Eurobonds and send the proceeds up to the American parent. The United States could argue that it did not have to tax this income from the Antilles, under the rules of its tax treaty with this former Dutch colony via its postcolonial relationship with the Netherlands. The U.S. Internal Revenue Service could easily have decided that the Dutch Sandwich was a sham and taxed the income. But it looked the other way. “These were Eurobonds, bearer bonds, which were virtually impossible to tax,” explained Michael J. McIntyre, a top U.S. expert on international tax, who was one of very few people in the United States to have opposed this at the time. “You British people were quite happy about (the tax-free, secretive Eurobond markets). And we wanted in. We wanted to attract the hot money too.”

> The United States sells financial secrecy not just at the federal level but at the state level too. Delaware is the biggest state provider of offshore corporate secrecy, but Nevada and Wyoming are the most opaque: They allow bearer shares, a vehicle of choice for mobsters and drugs smugglers, and they are particularly lax on allowing company directors and other officers to be named, hiding the identities of the real owners. Nevada does not share tax or incorporation information with the federal government and does not require a corporation to report where it does business. The IRS has no way of knowing whether a Nevada corporation has filed a federal tax return. Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Oregon are also routinely used for fraud by eastern Europeans and Russians, and, as noted, Texas and Florida are havens for illicit Latin American wealth. In the 1990s, the U.S. government gave millions in aid to help the former Soviet Union countries improve the security at their nuclear power plants. Much of it went missing. When the U.S. Department of Justice went looking for the money, investigators finally tracked it to anonymous shell companies in Pennsylvania and Delaware. Most cases involving financial market manipulations that the FBI has studied have involved U.S. shell companies from these states. The notorious “merchant of death” Viktor Bout, inspiration for the character played by Nicholas Cage in the Hollywood film Lord of War, alleged arms runner to the Taliban and other murderous organizations around the globe, operated through businesses in Texas, Delaware, and Florida.

[1] source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Islands:_Tax_Havens_a...

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#58
post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

Im dutch too and im super frustrated about this. I don't care about paying taxes (I've done so for the last 20+ years) even if they go as high as 52%. But it really irritates me that: - other companies with this tax deals pay almost nothing - its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

> its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

Do you think tax compliance is higher in small local businesses than large mega corps? Based on my experience in the US, tax fraud is much easier and more common with small businesses. Think about how many small shops don't even have a proper point of sales system, encourage cash, and hire under the table. Stackbucks would not be able to get away with that

> The agency [IRS] estimates that it collects $458 billion a year less in taxes from all Americans than the government is actually due. Most of that “tax gap” is income that goes unreported, and the biggest chunk of it, by far — $125 billion — is individual business income.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/16/business/smallbusiness/wh...

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death of morale... It's OK to commit fraud, kill, and rape as long as you can do it within a loophole in the law. Of cause it is a societal destructive way to see the world as a game.

This isn't fraud, murder, or rape though - it's optimizing tax expenditure to the legal limit, which the government was fine with. If you want people to pay more taxes, increase the legal amount that they need to pay. This may mean closing loopholes or raising the rate. That's it. Expecting a company to willingly pay more taxes than they have to, especially when surrounded by a field of competitors who don't, is fool…

well, the European rule is that the HQ of a company for tax purpose is where its orders are actually coming from. I don't have this vibe here.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#60
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the vote needs to unanimous and some countries don't want to give up their revenue stream.

The laws come from EC and they can keep pushing it until it passes as with many things. There must be a conflict of interest in the EC if they don't do it. Such changes should be a no brainer - the famous levelling of the playing field.

Its pretty much pointless though, if you can't move all your revenue to an ip holding company, you just have to make it slightly more realistic.

In case of Starbucks: they move a ton of their profit to a coffee bean exporter from Switzerland which they own themselves. And how should a government say how expensive those beans can be?

Any company can outsource part of their revenue to a subsidiary in a different country like that and it would be extremely hard to encode in law when they wouldn't be allowed to do this "because of taxation". Uber could for example move their cloud management costs to some company in a low tax country, or maybe have their developers outsourced to some low tax country. How would you decide that is "valid" outsourcing vs "tax cheating" outsourcing?

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