Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#41

Post by throwawayzRUU6f » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

technicolorwhat wrote: post #26

dstick wrote: post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

Im dutch too and im super frustrated about this. I don't care about paying taxes (I've done so for the last 20+ years) even if they go as high as 52%. But it really irritates me that: - other companies with this tax deals pay almost nothing - its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

Is the Netherlands in any way culpable in this - do they go the extra mile to help facilitate the evasion?

My layman understanding of the tax evasion schemes is that there's nothing special about Ireland or the Netherlands. They're chosen due to other factors, like English proficiency, stable and well known legal framework - but the essence of the schemes could be done in nearly any western country.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#42

Post by patrec » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

jiriknesl wrote: post #30

madsbuch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death of morale... It's OK to commit fraud, kill, and rape as long as you can do it within a loophole in the law. Of cause it is a societal destructive way to see the world as a game.

Paying lower taxes is nothing like kill or rape. There are lots of internet-only companies for which the government did absolutely nothing.

You mean all those companies that grew and educated their employees in test tubes on Mars from whence they telecommute using their own inter-planetary network infrastructure?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#43

Post by whiskyant » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:24 AM UTC

madsbuch wrote: post #15

artificial wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to hate the player instead of the game.

The death of morale... It's OK to commit fraud, kill, and rape as long as you can do it within a loophole in the law. Of cause it is a societal destructive way to see the world as a game.

This isn't fraud, murder, or rape though - it's optimizing tax expenditure to the legal limit, which the government was fine with.

If you want people to pay more taxes, increase the legal amount that they need to pay. This may mean closing loopholes or raising the rate. That's it.

Expecting a company to willingly pay more taxes than they have to, especially when surrounded by a field of competitors who don't, is foolish.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#44

Post by snakeboy » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

jiriknesl wrote: post #30

madsbuch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death of morale... It's OK to commit fraud, kill, and rape as long as you can do it within a loophole in the law. Of cause it is a societal destructive way to see the world as a game.

Paying lower taxes is nothing like kill or rape. There are lots of internet-only companies for which the government did absolutely nothing.

How about providing infrastructure, a stable economy, peaceful society, etc. ?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#45

Post by Denvercoder9 » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

throwawayzRUU6f wrote: post #41

technicolorwhat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im dutch too and im super frustrated about this. I don't care about paying taxes (I've done so for the last 20+ years) even if they go as high as 52%. But it really irritates me that: - other companies with this tax deals pay almost nothing - its unfair and destroys local competition i.e a Starbucks vs mom's coffee bar.

Is the Netherlands in any way culpable in this - do they go the extra mile to help facilitate the evasion? My layman understanding of the tax evasion schemes is that there's nothing special about Ireland or the Netherlands. They're chosen due to other factors, like English proficiency, stable and well known legal framework - but the essence of the schemes could be done in nearly any western country.

One reason the Netherlands was used (in the past) was that royaltys and interest paid from the Netherlands didn't have a withholding tax, so you could freely move money from "high tax" countries to "low tax" countries. That tax was introduced in January 2021, so maybe there are other reasons now.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#46

Post by f6v » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:29 AM UTC

dstick wrote: post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

Which movie was that when someone wanted to arrest a guy in Curaçao and the local police was like: "No no! Can't do it front of the bank! It will scare off other clients"?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#47

Post by simondotau » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:32 AM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #35

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just Shell, it's an honorary title for a lot of old 'notable' companies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koninklijk

I think they were referring to the fact that the title mentioned "Dutch shell", which is almost the complete name of Shell-the-company.

Weirdly, I read this whole thread and assumed people were referring to shell in the form of an empty sea shell, representing an analogy to remnants of a now-dead life form. Which is what crude oil pretty much is.

I didn't even think "shell corporation" until I read your comment.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#48

Post by FriedrichN » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #38

dstick wrote: post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

I think the Fear is that if the loophole is closed, the businesses will move elsewhere, taking an X amount of jobs with them - from which the government earns some income taxes. They take the crumbs instead of nothing, because there's no chance they get the cake. It may take EU wide legislation to fix, but even that is no guarantee because companies may just opt to not operate in the EU.

> taking an X amount of jobs with them

All three? These shell companies are often just a post address, sometimes an empty office with a plant (and someone to water the plant every week). The excuse is always that if we won't do it, someone else will and that we need international legislation. While that is true, someone needs to kick it off.

And I don't want the crumbs, they can stick those crumbs where the sun don't shine.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#49

Post by capableweb » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

whiskyant wrote: post #43

madsbuch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death of morale... It's OK to commit fraud, kill, and rape as long as you can do it within a loophole in the law. Of cause it is a societal destructive way to see the world as a game.

This isn't fraud, murder, or rape though - it's optimizing tax expenditure to the legal limit, which the government was fine with. If you want people to pay more taxes, increase the legal amount that they need to pay. This may mean closing loopholes or raising the rate. That's it. Expecting a company to willingly pay more taxes than they have to, especially when surrounded by a field of competitors who don't, is fool…

Or, we can enforce the spirit of the law (companies with equal profit pays equal amount of tax or similar) rather than enforcing the letter of the law. You know, how we deal with lawbreakers otherwise. It's exactly the reason we have space for interpretation in laws in the first place.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes

#50

Post by varispeed » Tue, May 18, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #38

dstick wrote: post #4

I'm getting more and more frustrated by my own country's willingness to facilitate this. It just doesn't make any sense. From what I can tell it's all based on old-fashioned debunked economic theories in the same vain as "trickle-down-economy". There's a growing resistance to the Netherlands as a "Doorsluisland", and our current administration's political turmoil will hopefully provide the momentum for actual change…

I think the Fear is that if the loophole is closed, the businesses will move elsewhere, taking an X amount of jobs with them - from which the government earns some income taxes. They take the crumbs instead of nothing, because there's no chance they get the cake. It may take EU wide legislation to fix, but even that is no guarantee because companies may just opt to not operate in the EU.

This is a fallacy. Sure government gets income tax, but that is nowhere near the billions that are siphoned out of the economy. The income tax come from workers, who then have less money to spend in the local economy and that causes further negative effects.

> that is no guarantee because companies may just opt to not operate in the EU.

Great. Tax dodging companies should be banned and because of that local competition will have a chance to grow. If they banned Uber from operating EU wide, I am sure smaller local companies would have picked up the market and that would benefit economy much more.