Shekhar Gupta (One of India's foremost journalists and media people) did a great 30 minute analysis of this article covering who the cast members are and how this ties back into various stories from the last year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlO8sKRynBY So far, the lab origin story sounds the most plausible and has the least holes in it. Now innocent until proven guilty is a thing, but is not like the PRC would e…
How is this the lab origin story more plausible than the original hypothesis that sars-cov2 originated from the wet-markets? Both are places where human and exotic animals closely interact, where sars-cov2 could have jumped. Why do you think the odds of the virus jumping are higher in one place than another?
More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
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Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#192can somebody shed light on what's going on there?
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#193A lot of people here claiming there is no evidence. Whether they think there was none because they didn't bother to look, they think the evidence is poor, or they can't imagine any authoritative evidence without the help of China it's just not true. People imagine Chinese social media as something that is completely locked down when in reality it was abuzz with information when a new mysterious disease was appearing…
I'm sorry, but this feels like conspiracy-theory peddling and FUD. What the linked site calls "evidence", is are at best "hints" or "possible signs". No evidence anywhere. Instead, you have wildly weird texts like section 8.3 ("A Note on Biowarfare") that literally just reads "This document does not make any attempt to link the work done at these laboratories as part of a 'bioweapon' or "bio-warfare" program.". It's…
There is one obvious conspiracy by the Chinese government to prevent all understanding of the virus. That does fit the definition of what a conspiracy is.
> "This document does not make any attempt to link the work done at these laboratories as part of a 'bioweapon' or "bio-warfare" program."
This makes perfect sense if you are an American, because in the anti-intellectual Trump era, there was a well circulated rumor that COVID was a Chinese bio-weapon that the CPC figured it could deal with better than Americans because China can weld people's door's shut, and you can't do that in America. This is on par with the widely circulated Chinese rumor that the American military brought it to Wuhan. Obviously both of those are extremely unlikely and very much conspiracy theories. Certainly on the American side our scientists said it's extremely unlikely that COVID was engineered and has none of the markers of bio-engineering very early into covid.
This is the article stating that it is not addressing that conspiracy theory, which was very much part of the conversation when it was written over a year ago.
> Just so you can throw the word "bioweapon" out there?
Out of your own ignorance of the context you are assuming malice.
>and never even stops to admit that there's the possibility that the causal reasoning is backwards
This is literally the second paragraph in the article, and it was bolded for emphasis:
This document does not attempt to provide a concrete conclusion
on whether either claim is factually true. Rather, it examines
the probability that each claim is true to allow the reader to
make his or her own conclusions. While either claim cannot be
irrevocably proven true, an attempt has been made to ensure the
evidence used to support these claims is as factual as possible.
Furthermore, you completely ignored the meat of the article focusing on a couple of weaker and overall not super central points.> Very convenient. In other words, no-one with a serious research background could be convinced to put their name on this nonsense.
It's almost like there is an extremely draconian authoritarian ruling government with very deep reach that has a long history of disappearing people it doesn't like or punishing them via connections with people who have power over them that people might be afraid of.
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hasn’t the exact same amount of time elapsed without finding any evidence of a lab leak?
Nature leaves a trail, so if you don’t find a trail then it becomes increasingly implausible that COVID resulted from a natural process. There are currently several intermediate steps that have not been uncovered anywhere, and which would have to have happened in order for this to be a natural process.
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
We went pretty quickly from "it started somewhere in China" to beating elderly asian people to death in the streets. I think the backlash was more against the justifications people use to be awful.
Didn't it only start happening, like, a year after people daring to wrongthink (that the virus wasn't of entirely natural origin) were persistently being called Trump-supporting Nazi conspiracy theorists?
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#196Any actual scientist (and not an "expert") know how long these things take. It took from 2002 to 2020 ( edit: or was it 2018? I can't remember ) to find a closely related SARS host (as in "not a match but close enough to point to a likely cause"). I find it very telling that we get lots of articles stating lots of stuff but not really any real scientific research papers on the source. I'm also not seeing any of these…
What do you make of the claim in this article [1], which says that intermediate host species were found within 4 months of SARS1 outbreak, and within 9 months of MERS outbreak? Admittedly I can't find the underlying source for his claims. [1] https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-th...
>"As no direct progenitor of SARS-CoV was found in bat populations despite 15 years of searching and as RNA recombination is frequent within coronaviruses, it is highly likely that SARS-CoV newly emerged through recombination of bat SARSr-CoVs in this or other yet-to-be-identified bat caves."
They also write...
>"After the causative agent of SARS was identified, SARS-CoV and/or anti-SARS-CoV antibodies were found in masked palm civets (Paguma larvata) and animal handlers in a market place. However, later, wide-reaching investigations of farmed and wild-caught civets revealed that the SARS-CoV strains found in market civets were transmitted to them by other animals."
Sorry if I made a mess of this as I'm on my phone and commented on more than on post too quickly really..
Edit: Woops, forgot the source. I knew it would be a mess..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7097006/#!po=11...
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#197Besides after Snowden whistleblowers learned that their life is basically over after they speak out.
Very low recognition and potentially jail time or worse
People interested in the matter should research but incentives are there for them to keep their mouth shut luckily
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#198A lot of people here claiming there is no evidence. Whether they think there was none because they didn't bother to look, they think the evidence is poor, or they can't imagine any authoritative evidence without the help of China it's just not true. People imagine Chinese social media as something that is completely locked down when in reality it was abuzz with information when a new mysterious disease was appearing…
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What i find weird is the extreme and very unscientific agression among certain virologist Would be interesting to dig further into who is funding their research.
That sounds like the worst of the Internet in action. You disagree with someone's off-handed remark on social media, so you want to remove their funding source? I guess that's pretty popular, but I have to say I don't care for it. Many people are still in the bargaining stage of COVID response -- if we find that some person made this virus and released it into the wild, we just send them to prison and the problem goe…
No, what I was getting at is that they might have a financial incentive to discredit the lab escape theory. For instance, some of this researcher's funding or his institution's funding might be from CCP-backed entities.
> We have to clean up this colossal mess regardless of whether it was man-made or not, and we have to reckon with the millions that died and will never come back. Finding someone to blame is just a distraction, and I imagine that many people want to move past that distraction and eradicate the disease. The learning can come later when we're collectively more calm.
This, trying to push the idea that fighting the virus or investigating the outbreak theory are mutually exclusive, is also a rhetoric I would expect to be pushed from the party responsible for the outbreak.
Truth is, why obstruct investigation efforts and try to hide the facts if the origin of the virus is natural?
Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm no virologist but of all the places on earth we are supposed to believe that, by cheer coincidence, the outbreak happened in that one city that happens to do research and have patents on lab-modified bat viruses and that it doesn't have anything to do with that lab. I mean: you seriously cannot make that up.
That fact alone is what makes this even more absurd to me. I know about probability math, - the fact the these virologists seemingly just discard that factor is twilight-zone territory to me.