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More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

nytimes.com

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Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#111

Post by splithalf »

jostmey wrote: post #69
screye wrote: post #22

Shekhar Gupta (One of India's foremost journalists and media people) did a great 30 minute analysis of this article covering who the cast members are and how this ties back into various stories from the last year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlO8sKRynBY So far, the lab origin story sounds the most plausible and has the least holes in it. Now innocent until proven guilty is a thing, but is not like the PRC would e…

How is this the lab origin story more plausible than the original hypothesis that sars-cov2 originated from the wet-markets? Both are places where human and exotic animals closely interact, where sars-cov2 could have jumped. Why do you think the odds of the virus jumping are higher in one place than another?

Not one single infected animal. No serious honest person believes the wet market nonesense. It’s not supposed to be believable.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#112

Post by kossTKR »

What i find weird is the extreme and very unscientific agression among certain virologist: "If you think SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in a lab, please unfollow me. " https://twitter.com/macroliter/status/1390720308265508871

Then you have other academics in the comments saying nothing is certain yet, and other prominents labs like Gupta Labs at Cambridge and Bloom Lab from Seattle saying there could be multiple explanations.

I know the issue is politicised and that's wrong as Ecohealth alliance from the US sponsored this research so there is no "single country at fault" - no need to avoid topics.

It's not "chinas fault" it's more like, what on earth was the US based Ecohealth alliance doing with this research, why so many previous lab leaks with little attention, what is the history if the Wuhan lab, whats the actual facts about Gain of Function research etc. All topics that the press is not looking into for some reason.

On Ecohealth alliance:

“ It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Daszak’s organization funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.””

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27071432

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#113

Post by saas_sam »

feanaro wrote: post #102
saas_sam wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even if it was a lab release, it's still a natural virus and could have happened without the lab release. That is not the assertion being made by the scientists pushing for the investigation. The assertion is that this is a chimeric virus that very much does NOT show up in nature and its lab-made qualities are precisely why it became a global pandemic. Or would you take it as pure coincidence that the first truly gl…

Was the Spanish flu also manufactured? Clearly there is such a thing as natural pandemics.

OP: "This virus was natural therefore any investigations into its artificiality are moot."

Me: "This virus has unique qualities that made it especially contagious, so its artificiality is not moot."

You: "Other viruses in the past were also bad."

Me, now: Yes, other viruses in the past were also bad. If you meant that to relate to the previous comments I think you left out the important bits.

It's like if we were discussing whether we should investigate if someone caused a deadly landslide. Why would you argue that we shouldn't look into it simply because landslides also happen naturally? If there are empty crates of TNT on the top of the hill, shouldn't we look into it?

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#114

Post by adrianb »

checker wrote: post #88
whatthesmack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what your point is. The source for SARS and MERS were found within months. We're over a year into this with no clue. Based on the current circumstances' inconsistencies with historical circumstances, this appears to be something different.

Source for finding SARS source within months? This is contrary but I'm open to debate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747529/

Wikipedia [1] seems to include sources:

> In late May 2003, studies were conducted using samples of wild animals sold as food in the local market in Guangdong, China. The results found that the SARS coronavirus could be isolated from masked palm civets (Paguma sp.), even if the animals did not show clinical signs of the virus. The preliminary conclusion was the SARS virus crossed the xenographic barrier from Asian palm civets to humans, and more than 10,000 masked palm civets were killed in Guangdong Province. The virus was also later found in raccoon dogs (Nyctereuteus sp.), ferret badgers (Melogale spp.), and domestic cats. In 2005, two studies identified a number of SARS-like coronaviruses in Chinese bats.[60][61]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#115

Post by brutal_chaos_ »

johncena33 wrote: post #90
ChicagoDave wrote: post #37

Everyone should read Frank Herbert’s White Plague. The transmission vector can be anything.

What does a sci-fi author or book have to do anthing with actual investigation of a real-life pandemic?

No answer will be given, of course, but perhaps it can open one's mind to new avenues of thought that may help lead to an/the answer.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#116

Post by TacticalCoder »

kossTKR wrote: post #112

What i find weird is the extreme and very unscientific agression among certain virologist: "If you think SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in a lab, please unfollow me. " https://twitter.com/macroliter/status/1390720308265508871 Then you have other academics in the comments saying nothing is certain yet, and other prominents labs like Gupta Labs at Cambridge and Bloom Lab from Seattle saying there could be multiple explanati…

I'm no virologist but of all the places on earth we are supposed to believe that, by cheer coincidence, the outbreak happened in that one city that happens to do research and have patents on lab-modified bat viruses and that it doesn't have anything to do with that lab.

I mean: you seriously cannot make that up.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#117

Post by johncena33 »

kossTKR wrote: post #112

What i find weird is the extreme and very unscientific agression among certain virologist: "If you think SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in a lab, please unfollow me. " https://twitter.com/macroliter/status/1390720308265508871 Then you have other academics in the comments saying nothing is certain yet, and other prominents labs like Gupta Labs at Cambridge and Bloom Lab from Seattle saying there could be multiple explanati…

Of course certain virologists would be eager to dismiss lab leak hypothesis. Just think about the implication of this hypothesis turns out to be true. Virologists have very strong conflict of interests. If these people have any integrity they'd refrain from commenting.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#118

Post by kossTKR »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #116
kossTKR wrote: post #112

What i find weird is the extreme and very unscientific agression among certain virologist: "If you think SARS-CoV-2 was engineered in a lab, please unfollow me. " https://twitter.com/macroliter/status/1390720308265508871 Then you have other academics in the comments saying nothing is certain yet, and other prominents labs like Gupta Labs at Cambridge and Bloom Lab from Seattle saying there could be multiple explanati…

I'm no virologist but of all the places on earth we are supposed to believe that, by cheer coincidence, the outbreak happened in that one city that happens to do research and have patents on lab-modified bat viruses and that it doesn't have anything to do with that lab. I mean: you seriously cannot make that up.

That fact alone is what makes this even more absurd to me. I know about probability math, - the fact the these virologists seemingly just discard that factor is twilight-zone territory to me.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#119

Post by fumbly »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #77
tomjen3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If experts can make a decent argument that the lab escape is the most likely scenario, then the PRC can choose to let us have access to the data, or look 100% guilty and be treated accordingly.

No, all the choices have already been made. The data have already been destroyed. The Wuhan lab where this research was taking place also had a leadership change, and is now run by someone in the military. That happened in March or April of 2020, IIRC. Chinese researchers and journalists disappeared in that time frame (their work was deleted from online archives, their names removed from public employment listings...…

> No, all the choices have already been made. The data have already been destroyed

You don't know that. You'd need an investigation to conclude that. Using it as an excuse not to investigate seems like assuming the conclusion.

Even if some data have been destroyed, it doesn't follow that every last piece of data everywhere has. Who knows what might turn out to be significant? There may well be relevant data in many countries, too, since the research was international.

Re: More Scientists Urge Broad Inquiry into Coronavirus Origins

#120

Post by hayst4ck »

A lot of people here claiming there is no evidence. Whether they think there was none because they didn't bother to look, they think the evidence is poor, or they can't imagine any authoritative evidence without the help of China it's just not true.

People imagine Chinese social media as something that is completely locked down when in reality it was abuzz with information when a new mysterious disease was appearing in Wuhan. Countries like Taiwan were suspicious and taking action as early as December.

Here is a set of evidence I have a hard time poking holes in:

https://project-evidence.github.io/

There are some pieces of evidence that are compelling alone:

  - beyond a reasonable doubt, coronavirus research was done at WIV.
  - beyond a reasonable doubt, collection of coronavirus from bats was done for the lab.
  - beyond a reasonable doubt, there have been instances of poor PPE/safety measures.
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