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Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#21

Post by yoavm »

flyinglizard wrote: post #11
encryptluks2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, well I mean if you want I can just link you to well-thought and detailed blog posts and news articles about Israel's war crimes against Palestine and how Israel is an apartheid state.

That's such trivialization of the word "apartheid", considering Gazans are under their own rule and that 20% of Israel are equal rights Arabs (something like 10% in France, for example). It has become a political term, but meaningless in practice.

Israeli here. I find the word apartheid pretty suitable to describe the situation of Palestinians living in the West Bank - no citizenship or voting right, many issues with land ownership, a majority controlled by a minority, etc etc.

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#22

Post by dalbasal »

Ozzie_osman wrote: post #3

I've heard there are some pretty intense debates inside Google about mapping issues related to Israel/Palestine (what to label, where to draw lines, etc).

There is, but it's like that for lots of places. There are plenty of conflicting border claims in the world. The azerbaijan-armenia was a recent hot button, for example. Crimea probably will be, going forward.

The Israel-Palestine conflict tends to be unique mostly in the passion it draws, inside google maps teams, FB's moderation teams and nearly anywhere else. Any specific issue likely has coroleries elsewhere.

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#23

Post by packetslave »

senko wrote: post #18
packetslave wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember, it's less of an "intense debate" over the political issues themselves, and more "how do we define and serve a world map in a non-political way, in areas of the world where the map itself is political" like Kashmir, Israel/Palestine, and a bunch of other places that most people who don't live there haven't heard of.

> areas of the world where the map itself is political That would be everywhere. Even the most boring border in the world is political: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_areas_disputed_by_Ca...

Right, hence the team of lawyers and policy people that Google (and presumably Microsoft, Apple, and anyone else who runs a mapping product) pay to figure out how to craft a policy that at least APPEARS non-political.

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#25

Post by dalbasal »

packetslave wrote: post #12
Ozzie_osman wrote: post #3

I've heard there are some pretty intense debates inside Google about mapping issues related to Israel/Palestine (what to label, where to draw lines, etc).

From what I remember, it's less of an "intense debate" over the political issues themselves, and more "how do we define and serve a world map in a non-political way, in areas of the world where the map itself is political" like Kashmir, Israel/Palestine, and a bunch of other places that most people who don't live there haven't heard of.

I'm sure that neutrality is the ideal, and even that the ideal is usually realized. That said, I happen to know how things look inside FB's ME content moderation team^. The israel-palestine conflict is passion provoking, all over the world, in ways that Azerbaijan-Armenia, N. Cyprus or Crimea are not. I suspect that's the case on the maps team too.

That said, content moderation tends to employ people who are experts in the region, with academic backgrounds in history, politics and such. They're likely coming in with strong opinions. Cartography may different.

^Safety, or whatever name they use internally.

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#26

Post by politithroway »

flyinglizard wrote: post #11
encryptluks2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, well I mean if you want I can just link you to well-thought and detailed blog posts and news articles about Israel's war crimes against Palestine and how Israel is an apartheid state.

That's such trivialization of the word "apartheid", considering Gazans are under their own rule and that 20% of Israel are equal rights Arabs (something like 10% in France, for example). It has become a political term, but meaningless in practice.

According to a recent Btselem study 25% of Israelis themselves think it's an appropriate term to use.

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/2021413_new_all_popul...

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#27

Post by The_Colonel »

senko wrote: post #18
packetslave wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember, it's less of an "intense debate" over the political issues themselves, and more "how do we define and serve a world map in a non-political way, in areas of the world where the map itself is political" like Kashmir, Israel/Palestine, and a bunch of other places that most people who don't live there haven't heard of.

> areas of the world where the map itself is political That would be everywhere. Even the most boring border in the world is political: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_areas_disputed_by_Ca...

> Even the most boring border in the world

US-Canadian border is definitely one of the more intense borders I crossed. And some of the horror stories I heard (e.g. Peter Watts) sound pretty bad. It might be the most boring US border though.

Really boring borders can be found in EU/Schengen where you drive by a sign announcing a different country and that's it. There are even more boring (and interesting at the same time) borders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Nassau#/media/File:Baar...

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#28

Post by mtalantikite »

Permit wrote: post #4
encryptluks2 wrote: post #2

Because they don't want you to see the war crimes taking place in Israel.

This reads like a thoughtless, knee-jerk reaction but I think there is opportunity for you to expand on your comment and guide the discussion to an interesting place. Who is “they” in this case? What war crimes are hidden by low quality satellite images that would have been exposed by high quality images? Are there any competing ideas as to why these regions might be hidden?

> What war crimes are hidden by low quality satellite images that would have been exposed by high quality images?

““Deliberate targeting of civilian objects and extensive, unjustified destruction of property are war crimes. Destroying entire multi-storey homes making tens of families homeless amounts to collective punishment of the Palestinian population and is a breach of international law," Saleh Higazi, deputy director for the Middle East and North Africa at Amnesty International, said in a statement.” [1]

Having high resolution satellite imagery would certainly help determine what has been and hasn’t been targeted.

[1] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/05/israel-opt-cy...

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#29

Post by mtalantikite »

flyinglizard wrote: post #11
encryptluks2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, well I mean if you want I can just link you to well-thought and detailed blog posts and news articles about Israel's war crimes against Palestine and how Israel is an apartheid state.

That's such trivialization of the word "apartheid", considering Gazans are under their own rule and that 20% of Israel are equal rights Arabs (something like 10% in France, for example). It has become a political term, but meaningless in practice.

It does seem to fit the definition. A pretty good outline for the case: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w&feature=youtu.be

Re: Israel-Gaza: Why is the region blurry on Google Maps?

#30

Post by akiselev »

packetslave wrote: post #17
petra wrote: post #14

High-resolution maps could be used by militaries, for example, when targeting. Maybe it's just a way to stay out of the conflict.

The military (ours and others) have their own overhead imagery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ofeq

According to [1] only 19 countries have military satellites. It's really difficult to hide a satellite launch but even if you assume the real number is twice that due to secrecy, that is very few countries and chances are none of them are particularly friendly with Hamas or Fatah.

Their useful not just for targeting but for tactics, strategy, and logistics. Even having access to freely available satellite imagery is a huge benefit to under-equipped armies and militias. Without them, effective warfare against a modern style military like Israel's, that depends on an independent command structure and rapid movement, is practically impossible without devolving into an insurgency. Hamas/Fatah likely have the resources to pay for a few commercial satellite shots using middlemen from sympathetic countries for up to date data for major offensives, but those shots often cost in the hundreds or thousands of dollars per sq mile. For day to day planning, even civilian imagery that updates once a year or two would be invaluable.

[1] https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-by-number-of-m...

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