Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships • Hacker News Board

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#191

Post by Klinky » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 9:46 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #173

Klinky wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One common method is to work for free for a short time, until you gain the skills necessary to perform a new job. Luckily food, shelter & transport is free too. Where I live, the GDP per capita is about 40x lower than the US. Where exactly do you live & what is the quality of life for those at the bottom?

I live in India. The quality of life at the bottom here in India is terrible, but that's irrelevant. I'm comparing the US poor to India's top 10% (lets not even discuss India's middle class). The average poor household in the US has 2 rooms per person, a car or two, air conditioning, and all sorts of consumer goods. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf I recently visited a family in Bandra (one of the posh…

Your description of "poor" sounds more like "Working Class" or "Lower Middle Class" in the USA. Often these lifestyles are supplied due to easy credit.

Sheltered poverty in the USA means studio apartment, no a/c, no car, no laundry facilities on site, dangerous neighborhood, little to no public transport.

You also have dirt poor poverty which people commonly refer to as "trailer trash", where you have communities of poor people living in trailers wasting away their lives with poor choices & poverty.

Then you have the destitute poor which are those that live on city streets, eat a charity kitchens & often have drug or mental health problems.

I will say that the poor in the USA do have it better than the poor in India, but that's mainly due access to government assistance. Often the US poor don't have money to save because they bought an A/C, fixed their car, had to see a doctor or payback a loan they took out the week before to make ends meet. That or they live with subsidized housing & utilities and are given a tiny amount of welfare/food stamps which is lucky to last to the end of the month.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#192

Post by duncanj » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 11:23 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #110

ivanbernat wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, how can I move there?

If you are a EU citizen you can move and live here (think there is some restriction on new accession states). If your grandparent is/was an Irish citizen, you are entitled to full Irish citizenship (and hence you can work here or anywhere else in the EU). Aside from that, I'm not sure.

I think it's more, if your grandparent was born in Ireland, you are entitled to apply for citizenship, and if your parent was born in Ireland, you are considered a citizen, and just have to verify the documents and get your passport.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#193

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 11:25 AM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #191

yummyfajitas wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in India. The quality of life at the bottom here in India is terrible, but that's irrelevant. I'm comparing the US poor to India's top 10% (lets not even discuss India's middle class). The average poor household in the US has 2 rooms per person, a car or two, air conditioning, and all sorts of consumer goods. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf I recently visited a family in Bandra (one of the posh…

Your description of "poor" sounds more like "Working Class" or "Lower Middle Class" in the USA. Often these lifestyles are supplied due to easy credit. Sheltered poverty in the USA means studio apartment, no a/c, no car, no laundry facilities on site, dangerous neighborhood, little to no public transport. You also have dirt poor poverty which people commonly refer to as "trailer trash", where you have communities of…

My definition of poor is the US government standard definition. My description is merely a factual description of people meeting the government's definition, according to the census. 75% of the poor do have a car (25% have two or more), 66% have 2 rooms per person, and just over half have AC.

Go read the census article I linked to.

If you wish to claim the government's definition of "poor" is overly broad and includes huge numbers of people who are actually middle class, I agree with you. But that simply means there are far fewer poor people in the US than we currently believe.

I will say that the poor in the USA do have it better than the poor in India, but that's mainly due access to government assistance.

No, it's due to wealth, plain and simple. Take away government assistance and virtually all Americans still have more than $1200/year to live on.

a tiny amount of welfare/food stamps which is lucky to last to the end of the month.

If that were true, poor Americans would not be fat.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#194

Post by danssig » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 12:59 PM UTC

cturner wrote: post #39

zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom. The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude. In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege. Moreover - a point not…

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

It's fine to have no minimum wage, but then you need strong unions to ensure people get paid what they're actually worth. If you leave it up to the employees they will be at too much of a disadvantage.

Companies do everything they can to prevent market signals on what wages are worth so they can rip people off. Couple that with the fact that many people who are technically very good are not good at negotiation. A strong union (i.e. not what the US has) can help with these problems.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#195

Post by Klinky » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:25 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #193

Klinky wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your description of "poor" sounds more like "Working Class" or "Lower Middle Class" in the USA. Often these lifestyles are supplied due to easy credit. Sheltered poverty in the USA means studio apartment, no a/c, no car, no laundry facilities on site, dangerous neighborhood, little to no public transport. You also have dirt poor poverty which people commonly refer to as "trailer trash", where you have communities of…

My definition of poor is the US government standard definition. My description is merely a factual description of people meeting the government's definition, according to the census. 75% of the poor do have a car (25% have two or more), 66% have 2 rooms per person, and just over half have AC. Go read the census article I linked to. If you wish to claim the government's definition of "poor" is overly broad and include…

75% of the poor do have a car (25% have two or more), 66% have 2 rooms per person, and just over half have AC.

Firstly AHS has a disclaimer that it overestimates poverty levels. This can inflate who falls into the "below poverty levels". Also the AHS is counting totals, yes someone may have A/C but that doesn't mean they have a car or 2 rooms per person. Someone could have two rooms & a car that breaks down often, but no A/C. Someone could have all 3 and someone else could have 0. Also the AHS mentions that 11% of those below poverty don't have safe drinking water & 20% live in a neighborhood with serious crime.

Also rooms per person & A/C & a car may not illustrate quality of life. You could look at Brazil having a rooms per person ratio which is much better than India, but your life would still suck if you lived in the slums.

Let's just say that being poor in the US poor isn't a picnic. But I don't think that India is a picnic either. The poor in each country faces a different set of problems. Just because the US poor have more money than the poor in India doesn't mean they don't still face serious problems. Like the saying goes "More money, more problems".

No, it's due to wealth, plain and simple.

Is the US just magically wealthy? Where is wealth derived from? How does a country like India become wealthy?

Take away government assistance and virtually all Americans still have more than $1200/year to live on.

...and cost of living in the USA is exactly the same as in India?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#196

Post by ryanklee » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #178

ryanklee wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4.9% of US pop. working at or below minimum wage is hardly insignificant. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm

You are misreading. It's 0.8% of the US population and 4.9% of hourly (i.e., nonsalaried) workers.

Ah, yes, thanks. Still, I doubt 3.6 mil workers is an economically ineffectual number.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#197

Post by yummyfajitas » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 3:27 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #195

yummyfajitas wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My definition of poor is the US government standard definition. My description is merely a factual description of people meeting the government's definition, according to the census. 75% of the poor do have a car (25% have two or more), 66% have 2 rooms per person, and just over half have AC. Go read the census article I linked to. If you wish to claim the government's definition of "poor" is overly broad and include…

75% of the poor do have a car (25% have two or more), 66% have 2 rooms per person, and just over half have AC. Firstly AHS has a disclaimer that it overestimates poverty levels. This can inflate who falls into the "below poverty levels". Also the AHS is counting totals, yes someone may have A/C but that doesn't mean they have a car or 2 rooms per person. Someone could have two rooms & a car that breaks down often, bu…

I agree that the government overestimates poverty levels. It's a much smaller problem in the US than most people believe.

Rooms per person, A/C and car may not illustrate quality of life, but they are consumption. If the Indian upper middle class can reduce consumption and live without such luxuries in order to save 20% of income, so can the US poor.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#198

Post by threejay » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 4:05 PM UTC

I'm currently in my sixth and final year of pharmacy school which consists entirely of clinical rotations at different practice sites in the area. Not only are these internships completely unpaid, we have to pay ~$30k for the priviledge which equates to almost $1000/week (6 x 6 week rotations). It's a complete scam.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#199

Post by rmc » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 9:27 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #73

wccrawford wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay wages to employees. (IE People who produce efficient output.) You pay experience to interns. (IE People who take time from efficient employees and produce little output.)

You pay experience to interns Very dependent on the type of internship. I saw one (unpaid) internship offering to give people experience working in a convience store. They basically wanted a normal employee to work as a cashier, but didn't want to pay them.

For the record here's a screen grab of the "Get experience tidying a shop": http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/05/17/no-salary/

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#200

Post by rmc » Fri, Jul 01, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

duncanj wrote: post #192

rmc wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a EU citizen you can move and live here (think there is some restriction on new accession states). If your grandparent is/was an Irish citizen, you are entitled to full Irish citizenship (and hence you can work here or anywhere else in the EU). Aside from that, I'm not sure.

I think it's more, if your grandparent was born in Ireland, you are entitled to apply for citizenship, and if your parent was born in Ireland, you are considered a citizen, and just have to verify the documents and get your passport.

if your grandparent was born in Ireland

I suspect, but amn't sure, that this is more felxible, and I think they include Northern Ireland aswell, i.e. they include "the island of Ireland".

(Which makes sense, the country now known as Ireland didn't exit until 1922, I'm in my 27s and by grandmother was born in the late 1920s. Someone in the 50s could have a grandparent born in what was then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.)