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Time to Close the Security Theater

blogs.forbes.com

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Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#51

Post by ovi256 »

hugh3 wrote: post #43

What are folks actually suggesting here? That we go back to the more relaxed pre-9/11 days where you'd go through a metal detector and get your carry-on X-rayed, but it wasn't that big a deal? Or that we actually abolish airport security entirely? The former seems pretty sensible to me, the latter seems a bit crazy. I guess the other problem is this: there's no doubt a bunch of Al Qaeda-ish folks sitting around right…

I think you completely missed the point. The TSA is, at best, plugging a few holes in a sieve. Any non-retarded terrorist could setup attacks. Un-plugging those few holes by reforming the TSA would free resources badly needed elsewhere and not change actual risks a iota.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#52

Post by waqf »

It recently occurred to me that we can see what "appropriate" security measures would be by looking, even within the US, at what security is in place at sites that are not targets of mass hysteria.

For example, subways are generally known to be good terrorist targets. What's the security level on subways? In Boston and NY, it's a bunch of signs saying "if you see something, say something" and "we reserve the right in principle to search your bags (penalty for refusal: leaving the subway)".

Intercity trains are sometimes suggested to be terrorist targets (I'm not sure whether they are). What's the security level on Amtrak? Well, I've seen K9 teams at Penn station. I've noticed that K9 teams are a damn sight less intrusive than airport security (and K9 dogs are a damn sight cuter than X-rays).

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#53

Post by chopsueyar »

smhinsey wrote: post #42
cema wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of airports is consistent with the number of people. But who in his right mind would want to work in TSA if they can find a respected job elsewhere? Israeli screeners, on the other hand, are respected.

To be clear I didn't mean that there are not literally enough people to hire to do the job. I should've been a bit clearer but what I was really getting at was the massive scope and cost of such an agency with staffing requirements like that. We're talking about something on par with or larger than the FBI.

There is only a $1 billion difference between the two agencies budgets (2010).

TSA is $8billion, FBI is $9billion, DHS is $55billion.

As the US military uses less air conditioning in Afghanistan, that should free up at least a couple billion.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#54

Post by chopsueyar »

owenmarshall wrote: post #49
swombat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli airports use extensive profiling to identify potential suicide bombers, from car checkpoints away from the airport to airport staff instructed to look people in the eye and ask them how they're doing (people about to blow themselves up tend to act differently from normal people). They definitely seem to focus on identifying people rather than things. Seems to work ok for them under much harsher conditions tha…

Israel has one major international airport, Ben Gurion. It serves ~12 million passengers a year. That's two months of traffic for Hartsfield-Jackson. The Israeli security model will not scale.

Israel's population is less than 7.5 million people.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#55

Post by waqf »

hugh3 wrote: post #41
billybob wrote: post #23

Terrorism is about creating terror. It's about magnifying, in your enemy's mind, what is actually a small threat. If you have an entire military, you don't use terrorism; you kill your enemies en masse. If you're a small band of nutjobs, you scrape together the resources for a few small hits. You hope that fear will do the rest of the job of crippling your enemy. The way to defeat terrorism is to not be terrified . T…

"You are a tiny band of nutjobs. You can't kill us all. You can't even kill .00001% of us." If we're talking about the US population, then 0.0001% is thirty people. They can probably manage that. However , on your broader point, nouveau-Islamist terrorism differs from more traditional varieties (the IRA et cetera) in that its practitioners are markedly less rational. For them, terrorism isn't a tool which they're app…

No. This is very likely true of the schmucks who blow themselves up, but those people aren't so much Al-Qaeda as they are victims of Al-Qaeda.

Did you ever notice how UBL never participated in any suicide attacks? Not saying he wasn't crazy, of course, but he was crazy like a dictator. Like, say, Hitler, he was shrewd in pursuit of his bizarre ideological objectives. You can't look at him and say Al-Qaeda had no political strategy.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#56

Post by owenmarshall »

chopsueyar wrote: post #54
owenmarshall wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has one major international airport, Ben Gurion. It serves ~12 million passengers a year. That's two months of traffic for Hartsfield-Jackson. The Israeli security model will not scale.

Israel's population is less than 7.5 million people.

People don't fly into Israel now? :)

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#57

Post by swombat »

owenmarshall wrote: post #49
swombat wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli airports use extensive profiling to identify potential suicide bombers, from car checkpoints away from the airport to airport staff instructed to look people in the eye and ask them how they're doing (people about to blow themselves up tend to act differently from normal people). They definitely seem to focus on identifying people rather than things. Seems to work ok for them under much harsher conditions tha…

Israel has one major international airport, Ben Gurion. It serves ~12 million passengers a year. That's two months of traffic for Hartsfield-Jackson. The Israeli security model will not scale.

Your argument:

Your site serves 20'000 users a month. There are more than a billion potential internet users in the world. Your site will not scale.

Everything scales if you put the effort into it. Ok, maybe some things don't, but saying "The Israeli security model will not scale" just because it hasn't scaled, without providing further arguments, is a bit like saying "Rails doesn't scale" without providing further arguments. Sure, Rails does things differently from how PHP does the same things, and that means the performance trade-offs are different, but that doesn't mean it can't be engineered to scale.

And if it makes the passengers/developers happier, it may be worth looking into, not dismissing without argument.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#58

Post by chopsueyar »

iwwr wrote: post #13
asmithmd1 wrote: post #9

The reason the TSA is not reigned in is that only the little people are subject to search. If you fly on a private jet you and your luggage are whisked right to your plane with no inspection whatsoever.

Pilots and air crew have to go through the TSA theater as well. The only immune people are the high-profile politicians.

Error.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17073-2004Aug...

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#59

Post by smhinsey »

chopsueyar wrote: post #53
smhinsey wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear I didn't mean that there are not literally enough people to hire to do the job. I should've been a bit clearer but what I was really getting at was the massive scope and cost of such an agency with staffing requirements like that. We're talking about something on par with or larger than the FBI.

There is only a $1 billion difference between the two agencies budgets (2010). TSA is $8billion, FBI is $9billion, DHS is $55billion. As the US military uses less air conditioning in Afghanistan, that should free up at least a couple billion.

Wow, I should've looked at that, that is stunning, considering that the FBI actually regularly solves crimes.

I imagine if you paid what it really cost to have screeners with that level of training we'd be talking about a pretty hefty increase over the FBI. Mind boggling.

Re: Time to Close the Security Theater

#60

Post by chopsueyar »

smhinsey wrote: post #59
chopsueyar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only a $1 billion difference between the two agencies budgets (2010). TSA is $8billion, FBI is $9billion, DHS is $55billion. As the US military uses less air conditioning in Afghanistan, that should free up at least a couple billion.

Wow, I should've looked at that, that is stunning, considering that the FBI actually regularly solves crimes. I imagine if you paid what it really cost to have screeners with that level of training we'd be talking about a pretty hefty increase over the FBI. Mind boggling.

But where is the other $47 billion going to? It is not the FBI's or CIA's budget.

[edit]

Probably to ICE for government provided IP protection and enforcement without due process.

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