Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not • Hacker News Board

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#31

Post by tnzm » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #30

tnzm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep just kill him and then there's nobody to have that problem. /s

Damn, how about join a casual sports league or volunteer at Habitat or some kind of group sessions. Anything to get social experience.

Damn, have you considered social experience could be the reason someone ended like that?

It's a feedback loop and the less in control you are, the less in control you are. Until you hit rock bottom. Which might not happen, and where you might bounce off, or not.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#32

Post by shuntress » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #24

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #2

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free fr…

All of the above applies to journalism as well, and is something that any media-savvy person will keep in mind at all times. Whenever I see someone expressing an opinion that this or that source is biased, or that there is such a thing as an unbiased source, I do a mental face-palm. The best propaganda and misinformation is framed to appear unbiased to its audience.

Things to watch out for are slogans like "Fair and balanced"

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#33

Post by whack » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:23 PM UTC

> There was no exchange of articles or courtroom-type setting where the authors of the lies had to directly defend or abandon those statements, and I guess the others in the department had some sort of cynical view that the details didn’t matter. Or, more precisely, they had a consensus that they didn’t want to think about the ugly thing that had happened, so they’d look away

The above resonated with me. One of the hard lessons I've had to learn in life, is that you will simply never be given a fair chance by some people. We would love to live in a world where we can face our accusations head-on, and after rebutting them, never have to face them again. 99% of life does not work this way though.

Key well-connected influencers may decide they don't like you for completely arbitrary reasons. And other people who know nothing about you, but trust the influencers, will take their side by default as well. No one is going to come out in the open and make concrete accusations against you. They will just silently embellish minor transgressions, or take things out of context to paint you in a negative light... and do most of this in private conversations where you don't even have a chance to respond to any of it. The end-results are very tangible and negative of course, but the means are completely under wraps and nearly impossible to fight against.

Ultimately, you can't fight against it any more than an ant can fight against its colony. If you find yourself in a system that has a vendetta against you, your best bet is to simply leave and find a different system that does value you. Or try your best to ignore them, respond only to the most vocal criticisms, continue focusing on your work, and let your success be your shield. Winning over the critics is a fool's errand - you're better off simply accepting that you will always have critics who dislike you. As the old saying goes, haters gonna hate

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#34

Post by agumonkey » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #20

Razengan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. The reality being that members of my own species choose not to be with me or work with me. I am unwelcome. Repeat that many times over many years.

That is a depressing perspective. Your self-worth should not be dependent on someone else's image of you. It should be based on the facts of your own performance. You can't fix or improve other people. You can only improve your own performance. Focus on improving yourself and be satisfied with that. Anything else is a path to disappointment.

I tried that game, it's a never ending race. At one point you'll have to interact with people and you're back to square one, your own view will have to collide with his/hers.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#35

Post by agumonkey » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #10

I worked in academia a few years, and moved to industry during my PhD (which I completed). There were strong political jousts, like everywhere else. This was unfortunately coupled to an inherent lack of money (and low salaries), and enormous egos that were growing as people were getting higher diplomas or positions. This is one of the reasons that made me left because I saw that either I jump into the cage and bite m…

Did you find people with similar mindset in that 'zoo' ?

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#36

Post by bobthechef » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #2

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free fr…

Those we regard as "intelligent" are actually capable of more egregious errors than those we do not regard that way. If a person's will is corrupted by vice, then he uses his intellect to rationalize his errors and his vices. And the more intelligent, the most elaborate these rationalizations can become until this person is trapped in the thick fog of his vile theories, unable and unwilling to escape. They become blinded by their own evil constructions which they then transmit onto their students.

While vices like those having to do with sexual depravity (and the resulting mental blindness it causes) are ubiquitous, pride and envy are especially central here. They produce the same contemptuous attitude that leads such people to hate the masses and suppose that if they believe something, then it must be false. It also explains the politics of today.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#37

Post by _e » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

zomglings wrote: post #9

We are hearing from two people who were able to weather the political whirlwind. Sadly, this playbook of ostracization is a generally successful one. The people who are successfully sidelined by this kind of behavior become actual pariahs. Their isolation is so complete that people have a tendency to explain this as "academia working as intended".

This is why it is so important to have the courage to get up and leave. If one has been successfully sidelined then, yes, they will become an actual pariah because they feel like they have to explain everything that they do and will continue to do so because they feel like no one is acknowledging them. This is part of the gaslighters trap.

It should not be a surprise that there are some who might feel threatened by people who want to challenge the status quo in search of the truth or constantly push their mental and physical limits.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#38

Post by actually_a_dog » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #2

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free fr…

Let's not forget: this also applies to forums, such as HN. I have seen enough comments (edit: with significant merit) downvoted without comment to believe this is true here, and I've seen it on other forums as well. Go against the prevailing opinion at your own risk, if you value fake internet points.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#39

Post by hitekker » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:37 PM UTC

> It was an interesting bit of group dynamics, in that the vast majority of my colleagues there did not ever have to be in the position of actually endorsing the lies about my work; they just were able to not think about it and move on. There was no exchange of articles or courtroom-type setting where the authors of the lies had to directly defend or abandon those statements, and I guess the others in the department had some sort of cynical view that the details didn’t matter. Or, more precisely, they had a consensus that they didn’t want to think about the ugly thing that had happened, so they’d look away.

Perhap as Martin Luther King once said, in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#40

Post by hzay » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

It's funny how freely the word pariah is used in english. When I was a kid my parents used to tell me never ever to say that word, and that I might get arrested if I do. I never dug into this to find out why but that's a super taboo word in tamilnadu.