Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#151

Post by playingchanges » Sun, May 16, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

saddlerustle wrote: post #111

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #99

The EU lawmakers are doing what the gutless paid for and owned US lawmakers cannot or will not do. The US congress balooneyd around with Zuckerberg, he took the piss out of them. The EU politicians are a little bit less shameless and do something to protect the population(not even the local electorate, they have the ability to see beyond the box). Facebook and Instagram are designed to keep people more "engaged"(addi…

> Tried to delete FB, ig or WA account completely? Every imaginable Ui obstruction and retention trick will bother you on the way out. Deleting WhatsApp is Settings -> Account -> Delete My Account -> Delete My Account Deleting Facebook is Settings -> Account Ownership -> Deactivation and Deletion -> Delete Account (With a very clear choice between deactivation and permanent deletion) -> Delete Account Compare that to…

You still have to make a literal phone call to unsubscribe from WSJ.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#152

Post by mrathys » Sun, May 16, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

mortehu wrote: post #60

toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now now, they don’t “steal” it, they just “collect” it. All this data falls off the back of a truck, they just pick it up.

Isn't the main function of Facebook to allow users to upload or enter contents for others to view? It seems like people here tend to think of ad profiles as the only data that matters, but Facebook "collects" messages you post and photos you upload, just like most email services "collect" all your emails. This kind of data is far more sensitive than your ad profile.

The main function of Facebook is to spy on people, the providers of the data. All data gathered is then sold to paying customers. They make all their money this way. If they only had a graph with persons and relations between these persons and did nothing else with it than show this to these people, maybe we were not facing this discussion now.

The cynic in me would say: store all data on EU soil ;)

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#153

Post by teachingassist » Sun, May 16, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

evanelias wrote: post #136

trasz wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Facebook would have to redesign their sharding. Who cares? Also, let's not forget that we're talking about a service with absolutely horrible reliability. Facebook only cares about reliability at scale; at a single person level reliability is quite poor; you can suddenly discover that your random post has 60 thousand likes (for a few minutes), or a friend of yours has a new post (they don't). Thus, the questions o…

> So Facebook would have to redesign their sharding. Who cares? Do you believe Facebook is the only company that would ever be affected by this? Personally I strongly suspect that once the precedent is set -- that is, regulation requiring user data to remain strictly on servers in the user's country and nowhere else -- the entire tech industry would be severely impacted. > the questions of "what if something has >10m…

> Do you believe Facebook is the only company that would ever be affected by this?

It's quite clear that GDPR allows data to cross the border, if particular safeguards are guaranteed by the data recipient.

That continues to be the advice generally given following the rejection of "Privacy Shield" e.g. by https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/third-countries/

This particular ruling affects only Facebook (and is specifically against Facebook), because it is only Facebook that has here been identified as failing to offer those safeguards.

Google similarly is a tech giant operating across this border, and doesn't currently face such a sanction.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#154

Post by ConceptJunkie » Mon, May 17, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #15

trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

A tiny minority of Facebook users is millions of people. Lots of people have international family and friends. A fallback approach is infeasible for legal requirements, unless it's there for appealing the fine to a lower value. The question is potentially very difficult, and could only be resolved by constructive engagement with the party making the rules. Don't forget what happens when people travel.

I don't have many Facebook friends, but they include people on at least 3 other continents. I'm sure a lot of folks have at least some friends in other countries.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#155

Post by greycol » Mon, May 17, 2021, 3:44 AM UTC

vikarti wrote: post #142

des1nderlase wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point, not if EU said so. FB needs to comply to EU laws to operate in EU.

So USA's CLOUD Act doesn't apply if EU says so?

It does apply in the EU and that's the point, if a US company can't engineer a legal or technical work around then they can't operate in the EU without breaking either US or EU laws.

If the US believes that it's in a strong enough position that these companies can remain competitive while ignoring either US or EU law (and dodging enforcement) then it's welcome to not make amendments to the CLOUD Act. Otherwise it can have US companies lose market share(or suffer EU enforcement actions) or employ diplomatic lines to neuter or work around the law.

You can of course note that the same issue will arise going the other way (EU company operating in the US) but the cost for the EU is obviously judged to be less than what's gained by protecting their citizens (or that it's at least a good drum to beat to trade for other considerations from the US).

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#156

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, May 17, 2021, 10:16 AM UTC

I trade as a car-thief. Enforcing the laws against theft would have devastating consequences for my business. Can I challenge those laws?

Nope. If my business depends on breaking the law, then I have two choices: pay the penalties, or cease trading.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#157

Post by corobo » Mon, May 17, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

shakezula wrote: post #107

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #99

The EU lawmakers are doing what the gutless paid for and owned US lawmakers cannot or will not do. The US congress balooneyd around with Zuckerberg, he took the piss out of them. The EU politicians are a little bit less shameless and do something to protect the population(not even the local electorate, they have the ability to see beyond the box). Facebook and Instagram are designed to keep people more "engaged"(addi…

This is why every time I hear someone complain about GDPR i gently remind them that it’s the exact type of legislation people say they want to protect their data. People are so short sighted.

I want them to be safe with my data! I don't care about my customer's data!

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#158

Post by latk » Mon, May 17, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #79

I know that a lot of people's reaction to this might be, "screw Facebook", but the ramification might be "entrench Facebook such that no one can compete with them." If the Irish data regulator enforces the provisional order, it would effectively end the privileged access companies in the US have to personal data from Europe and put them on the same footing as companies in other nations outside the bloc. This isn't ju…

Every EU company has been having these compliance problems since the Privacy Shield invalidation in last year's Schrems II judgement. It is only Facebook that had the lawyers (and the gall) to sue the Irish DPC to prevent them from enforcing this judgement. Other authorities have already started enforcing, for example a small Bavarian company got a slap on the wrist for having used MailChimp.

But yes, the EU regulatory environment is definitely making it more difficult to cheaply trial some business idea. GDPR isn't part of the problem. By unifying EU data protection law it has become easier to target the EU as a whole. My gripe is more with things like the upcoming copyright directive which is a de-facto link tax.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#159

Post by cromka » Tue, May 18, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

cerved wrote: post #118

cromka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, although this is an educated guess, about US businesses paying for Facebook ad services targeting EU customers using the collected data in a way that GDPR would block in EU.

No, not really. This doesn't have anything to do with US companies using ad targeting services that don't comply with GDPR. Schrems 2 is case primarily about US companies working with US authorities. https://edpb.europa.eu/our-work-tools/our-documents/other/fr...

Oh, so basically that thing that dictates that US can ask any US-based company to disclose any data in its possession, and so to protect EU citizens, EU wants US-based companies to store EU data on EU servers.

If I also remember correctly from reading up on Tutanota, it gets so nuanced, that to the US authorities it is enough that a single US employee of a non-US company has access to such data to summon them to disclose it?

Either way, Facebook is in deep shit.