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Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu

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Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#11

Post by lbhdc »

mannykannot wrote: post #7
agumonkey wrote: post #5

Ultimately it's an ~education thing (for the lack of a better word). You and others want to be in a place where people aren't hiding their thoughts that much. Ability to express subjective criticism in a mellow manner is very important. And the ability to accept being wrong. Basically being tuned to others POV to improve everybody's view or understanding without undermining their well being too.

It is not clear to me whether you are suggesting the issue is merely one of how to give and receive justified criticism. I see the greater issue as one of the use of marginal, overblown or simply unjustified criticism and innuendo to isolate people and undermine reputations. We all know it happens.

I have worked in a few departments where this has happened. It seemed that it was a means used by a group of engineers to get rid of other engineers they didn't see as "one of them".

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#12

Post by ZephyrBlu »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #10

I worked in academia a few years, and moved to industry during my PhD (which I completed). There were strong political jousts, like everywhere else. This was unfortunately coupled to an inherent lack of money (and low salaries), and enormous egos that were growing as people were getting higher diplomas or positions. This is one of the reasons that made me left because I saw that either I jump into the cage and bite m…

> There were strong political jousts, like everywhere else. This was unfortunately coupled to an inherent lack of money (and low salaries), and enormous egos that were growing as people were getting higher diplomas or positions

Sayre's Law: "'In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake.' By way of corollary, it adds: 'That is why academic politics are so bitter.'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#13

Post by agumonkey »

mannykannot wrote: post #7
agumonkey wrote: post #5

Ultimately it's an ~education thing (for the lack of a better word). You and others want to be in a place where people aren't hiding their thoughts that much. Ability to express subjective criticism in a mellow manner is very important. And the ability to accept being wrong. Basically being tuned to others POV to improve everybody's view or understanding without undermining their well being too.

It is not clear to me whether you are suggesting the issue is merely one of how to give and receive justified criticism. I see the greater issue as one of the use of marginal, overblown or simply unjustified criticism and innuendo to isolate people and undermine reputations. We all know it happens.

I felt the situation of the researchers was actually something that is more general (not only in academics or reputation circles). A human thing.

How do we know our critics are unjustified unless we can feel free to word them out ? To me the issue was the bad reflex for people to speak in the back to put it simply. And not to blame Jessica, there's also the natural reflex to feel stuck in shock when facing people who clearly are not speaking their minds. In that case I'm sure a little habit of "what." to those people can quickly stop the toxic game.

That's why I thought it requires most people to be a bit tougher and yet softer and have a natural or trained desire to confront things. It's a strange game of having empathy about our weaknesses and yet not letting them spoil the place.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#14

Post by darkerside »

The funny thing about this that I realized is, there are at least some instances where I am rejected by one or more individuals but I attribute the rejection to the entire group. Realistically, this is not what's going on. It's just that most people do not care, or don't care enough to intervene.

This is why it's important to have at least a few influential friends who can advocate on your behalf.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#15

Post by bananasbandanas »

majke wrote: post #4

Rejection is probably one of the strongest feelings for a normal person. For me two thoughts help keep my spirits up: - I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. - "If you don't feel rejected every day, it means you're not trying hard enough."

I had an experience that drove the second point home for me.

We were doing a white water kayak course. At this school it was tradition at the end of each day to paint one of our fingernails for each time you capsized. First day, our group was kind of smug about the fact that we only got maybe one or so each, while another group had basically both hands painted already. So we said something to that effect to our trainer, and he just says 'Yeah, because they are trying way harder to push their limits.'.

He was right of course, and the next day we took way more risks as well. Made the whole thing even more fun, and it was definitely a good lesson.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#16

Post by JackFr »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #10

I worked in academia a few years, and moved to industry during my PhD (which I completed). There were strong political jousts, like everywhere else. This was unfortunately coupled to an inherent lack of money (and low salaries), and enormous egos that were growing as people were getting higher diplomas or positions. This is one of the reasons that made me left because I saw that either I jump into the cage and bite m…

“The reason that university politics is so vicious is because stakes are so small” ― Henry Kissinger

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#17

Post by linuxftw »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #2

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free fr…

Many scientists actively speak out about the strong biases and conflicts of interest in their respective industries. The media universally lambasts them as crackpots.

Couple that with the fact that most people don't feel comfortable with the topic of 'science,' they choose to mentally defer any interpretation of evidence/facts to some authority, it's incredibly easy to mislead the population.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#18

Post by bittercynic »

Razengan wrote: post #8
majke wrote: post #4

Rejection is probably one of the strongest feelings for a normal person. For me two thoughts help keep my spirits up: - I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. - "If you don't feel rejected every day, it means you're not trying hard enough."

> I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. The reality being that members of my own species choose not to be with me or work with me. I am unwelcome. Repeat that many times over many years.

_Some_ members.

If every member of our species choose not to be with or work with you it would be a major problem, but probably not an insoluble one.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#19

Post by teachingassist »

linuxftw wrote: post #17
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #2

Social groups, whether in academia, industry, civil society, or anywhere else are never as able to maintain the level of objectivity they think they possess. Group think isn't (just) a structural failure but a intractable bias all human communities face simply because they are made up of humans. I think there is an implicit belief in the scientific and technology communities that rational investigation can be free fr…

Many scientists actively speak out about the strong biases and conflicts of interest in their respective industries. The media universally lambasts them as crackpots. Couple that with the fact that most people don't feel comfortable with the topic of 'science,' they choose to mentally defer any interpretation of evidence/facts to some authority, it's incredibly easy to mislead the population.

Only speaking against popular biases and conflicts of interest often is crackpot - it represents a failure to recognise your own biases and conflicts of interests.

You can present an alternative view without accusing other people of bias.

Re: Feeling like a pariah, even when you’re not

#20

Post by zaphar »

Razengan wrote: post #8
majke wrote: post #4

Rejection is probably one of the strongest feelings for a normal person. For me two thoughts help keep my spirits up: - I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. - "If you don't feel rejected every day, it means you're not trying hard enough."

> I was the same person before the rejection as I am after it. There is nothing changing in reality - only my own view, my own feelings. This is all mostly self-inflicted. The reality being that members of my own species choose not to be with me or work with me. I am unwelcome. Repeat that many times over many years.

That is a depressing perspective. Your self-worth should not be dependent on someone else's image of you. It should be based on the facts of your own performance. You can't fix or improve other people. You can only improve your own performance. Focus on improving yourself and be satisfied with that. Anything else is a path to disappointment.
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