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Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

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Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#151
post #36

As a Bitcoin miner ( https://toom.im ), while I appreciate the work put into it, this particular metric of "transactions per kW" might not work the way you expect. The main point that you should understand is that a PoW blockchain's energy usage is not proportional to its transactions. I'll say that a different way: the transactions themselves do not use any energy in mining. I'll say this in a third way: it takes ex…

Interesting angle -- but it's really not a defense of POW so much an argument for networks like Saito (https://saito.io) that replace mining with routing work and get cost-of-attack from the electricity spent running the servers / routing infrastructure.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you are using 100% green energy, that energy can be used for something productive not providing PoW You can say the same thing about ANY activity that isn't an arbitrarily defined form of altruism. Sports? Concerts? Video games? All vast wastes of time, money, and energy that could be spent fighting poverty or feeding the poor. This betrays the intention of criticizing bitcoin's energy usage because it moves the…

But almost any other activity only benefits from getting more efficient. Compare today's efficient LED lighting technology with what was available a few decades ago. With proof-of-work on the other hand, efficiency is actively counteracted . If a proof-of-work cryptocurrency holds its price, its energy usage can only go up. You are also assuming that only renewable energy will be used for mining in the first place. I…

I'll admit that based on my limited knowledge of PoW I was unaware of this disincentive against efficiency. I'll have to study more about how PoW works.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#153
post #62

> It is great to see effort being put into researching cleaner alternatives. Unfortunately, there is no working PoS-based system that does not rely on some degree of centralization in its security model. This is false. See Algorand, Cardano, Mina, etc. Proof-of-work is very much a technology of the past. It's the fossil fuel of cryptocurrencies.

Algorand isn't currently decentralized. They have a list of approx 100 relays required for the network to function that they control tied to a centralized single domain.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#154
post #36

As a Bitcoin miner ( https://toom.im ), while I appreciate the work put into it, this particular metric of "transactions per kW" might not work the way you expect. The main point that you should understand is that a PoW blockchain's energy usage is not proportional to its transactions. I'll say that a different way: the transactions themselves do not use any energy in mining. I'll say this in a third way: it takes ex…

> In steady state, miners will dump energy into mining a coin until the cost of energy = the value of the coins coming out. Exactly, that's why if you're using this list to somehow decide coin X is more "efficient" than coin Y, then it's a foolhardy exercise. For proof of work to actually work, the cost of the electricity has to be proportional to the total market cap of the coin. Otherwise, if the amount of work was…

"Efficient" could also be read as "I am willing to sacrifice x Wh to the gods of crypto wealth, where do I get the biggest return?"

That might even be a tolerable mindset if you happen to live in a cold place and the only tool available to keep you from freezing to death was electricity.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On your website that you linked says "We conduct our business in a way that protects ... our planet's climate against warming." Can you elaborate how providing infra to mine Bitcoin is helping the planet against global warming? Aren't you doing the exact opposite? If you are using 100% green energy, that energy can be used for something productive not providing PoW. Note Bitcoin alone currently consumes 0.55% of worl…

> that energy can be used for something productive A decentralized/borderless/censorship-resistant/virtual currency is one of the most productive things we can use energy for. It might not be as apparent in the US or the developed world, but Bitcoin is a life-saver for many people in countries with crumbling currencies. We waste a lot of energy on things that are far more more useless (like christmas lights for examp…

I don't believe mining Bitcoin quite falls into the category of "most productive things we can use energy for". Drug discovery, carbon capture, agriculture, construction, etc. etc. come to mind as slightly more useful. Financial transactions in traditional banking systems which Bitcoin mining is more comparable with consume far far far less energy. Also Bitcoin is designed to adjust PoW difficulty based on network's average mining performance. In other words, the more compute power you provide the less efficient it becomes.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#156
post #70

There is a lot of ignorance going around here. Bitcoin SV is cheaper because it can handle vastly more transactions per block, making it more efficient. Bitcoin SV believes in unrestricted scalability. Yes mostly this means miners will tend to agglomerate, and specialize I to big data center. Well know public entities that must follow law. but we believe all miners also have an incentive to not let any other gros pas…

Why is this getting downvoted?

Because Bitcoin SV's potentially huge block size restricts who can actually run a node, making it very centralized

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#157

if a huge hydro power generator in a remote location on a far away continent wastes local energy, does my city power bill go up? because of BTC ? tell me more

The energy grid is actually huge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_area_synchronous_grid

Not sure about economic effect though, I'm not a electrical economic engineer haha

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#158
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will see how proof of stake will work, and in FAQ is a paper about it. POS have one big problem, that you only have to buy coins once and stake them and you will get richer every day by doing nothing without any additional investment. Basically it will make rich richer and more centralized. We will see how it will works in future.

It literally codefies "the rich gets richer" deep into the protocol. While I'm pro-eth, this makes it a lot less "fair" in my opinion. With PoW, miners can't really hold on to the coins for very long, so they have to dump it to cover electricity and hardware costs which always creates supply whereas with PoS, a staker can just hold on to the coins they get forever at no cost and their share of the pie keeps getting l…

The difference is that anyone can stake. It's going to be the default way to store ETH akin to a savings account for most people so pretty much everyone is going to share in that PoS issuance. This also doesn't affect new buyers as they are buying ETH to use it most likely so it's not being held long term. If they decide to buy long term then they also get the PoS issuance so everyone wins.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But almost any other activity only benefits from getting more efficient. Compare today's efficient LED lighting technology with what was available a few decades ago. With proof-of-work on the other hand, efficiency is actively counteracted . If a proof-of-work cryptocurrency holds its price, its energy usage can only go up. You are also assuming that only renewable energy will be used for mining in the first place. I…

I'll admit that based on my limited knowledge of PoW I was unaware of this disincentive against efficiency. I'll have to study more about how PoW works.

That's perfectly understandable, I think relatively few people looked at proof-of-work in detail. I can give you a quick overview of how proof-of-work works (I understand it well enough to actually be able to do it by hand on paper), but nevertheless doing your own research always helps:

To "mine" a block, a miner attaches a random number to the content of the block (the content mostly being the actual transactions), performs a difficult calculation on the entirety (i.e. block and random number), and checks whether the result of that calculation matches a prescribed goal. The goal is to have at least a certain amount of leading zeroes in the resulting number, and it is (to everyone's best knowledge) impossible to know how many leading zeroes there will be without performing the calculation. That is the literal goal, not an analogy.

In the massively overwhelming majority of tries, this goal is not reached. The calculation was useless, and the miner tries again with a different random number attached to the block. There is no other value to the calculation than to reach the arbitrary goal. If the goal is reached, the miner has won the lottery: All participating nodes in the network accept the result (the calculation is easy to verify) and the miner may claim the rewards for themselves.

The amount of leading zeroes to achieve is directly tied to the mutually agreed upon "difficulty". If mining becomes easier and the lottery is won too quickly (say because new faster ASICs flood the market, or more miners participate), the network adjusts the difficulty up, meaning more leading zeroes, so that the overall chances of winning the lottery within a given time frame stays stable.

Re: Coin Carbon Cap – PoW cryptocurrencies ranked by energy efficiency

#160
post #52
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, running a validator will cost some money. I will explain how I think. If the rich want to get richer he have to make good investment decisions and some work. In POS you don't have to do anything at all, just buy and hold. So in POS, you don't need to innovate your business model. In POW, you always have to innovate to be a leader. Bitcoin ASIC innovation in last years shows how strong competition is. And competi…

This is often claimed to be an advantage of PoS: you can't get an extra increase in rate of profits by being richer (beyond the linear increase you'd expect). With PoW on the other hand, the richest have the best access to the most innovative technology and so you get superlinear profits the richer you are.

> This is often claimed to be an advantage of PoS: you can't get an extra increase in rate of profits by being richer (beyond the linear increase you'd expect). With PoW on the other hand, the richest have the best access to the most innovative technology and so you get superlinear profits the richer you are.

And yet, anyone who buys these proof-of-stake coins now, years after they were launched, suffers from having a cost basis orders of magnitude higher than that of the early investors. Yeah, they’re all superficially earning “the same staking ROI”. But in relative terms, the earliest investors are mopping the floor with the later investors, because the earliest investors can stake orders of magnitude more coins.

The earliest stakers become by far the biggest miners. They’re given an outsized influence over the network, and it’s sadly telling — and a bit unsurprising — that early PoS investors astroturf their coin by focusing on irrelevant minutia, e.g. “open access to staking ROI”, or whataboutism, e.g. “but what about ASIC miner distribution”. That is a classic Red Herring.

“Rate of profits” doesn’t matter more to fairness than, say, premining half or more of the outstanding supply of a given coin to give early investors absurd ROI advantages. “Fair access to yield” doesn’t matter more to fairness than exclusive pre-ICOs rounds which only prestigious investors have access to.

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